Cinecast Episode 396 – Rated ‘R’ for Mood

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It has finally happened. Matt Gamble shows up and forces a co-host to say enough is enough and leave the room. In these parts, it is probably the best way to handle things until cooler heads prevail – which takes a few minutes. You might think is the grotesquery on display in Fury Road or the non-necessity of the Pitch Perfect sequel becoming this weekends box-office champ. But No. Appropriately it is the Game of Thrones Season 5 Episode 6. If Beinioff and Weiss, HBO’s show-runners are looking for a reaction, they have gotten it… Things devolve into semantics, call it the “Daybreaker’s Effect.” But fear not, intrepid listener with ringing ears, we move on to happier, less controversial places created by Mike Judge, Neil Marshall and Alfred Hitchcock.

As always, please join the conversation by leaving your own thoughts in the comment section below and again, thanks for listening!

 

 
 

 


 

TIME TRACKS:

See comments for more time track listings – thanks to Ultimolee for the extra elbow grease!

 

MAIN REVIEWS:

Mad Max: Fury Road
Pitch Perfect 2

 

GAME OF THRONES:

Season 5, Episode 6
Music provided by Tushar Lall
Also rape.

 

THE WATCH LIST:

MATT
Vertigo

ANDREW
Doomsday

 

OTHER THINGS:

The Mary Sue on Game of Thrones
2 Hour talk on the shooting of Fury Road by Aussie Cinematographers John Seale & David Burr
Neil Marshall on Trailers From Hell

 

RSS AND CONTACT INFO:

show content

 

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antho42
Guest

The weirdest, funniest aspect of the film is Hardy’s accent. Such a bizzare transatlantic accent.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

He is attempting an Aussie accent in the opening narration, but then it disappears for a kind of aristocratic BANE voice here and there. It’s weird, but totally in fitting with the film.

devolutionary
Guest

Haven’t finished the episode yet but I still can’t get over the fact how pristine and clean the ‘child-bearing’ women were. Also, interesting decision to use mostly models for these roles as I doubt there would be many attractive women (by our standards) left in this time.

Darryl B
Guest

SPOILERS

Big Joe only wanted the best “stock” to have his children so I’m sure he went out of his way to ensure those women were well taken care of enough so that one of them wanted to stop running and go back to him at one point because she didn’t mind being a sex slave to him because they were taken care of.

Rick
Guest

Or the ones who existed would be held in high regard and kept away and hidden.

schizopolis
Guest

I could’ve sworn I saw Andrew rate Fury Road 2.5 stars on Letterboxd. I remember even reading his review. Now I’m listening to his raves on the podcast. Am I right? Now his rating is 4 stars. Did Andrew just backtrack?? Fess up, bro!

Andrew James
Admin

Nope. I rated it 4/5 from the get go. You might’ve seen me arguing that I didn’t LOVE it and how I don’t think it’s a “masterpiece” like everyone else, but I really liked the movie.

See this comment from a few days ago.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

It is possible to like a film A LOT, even love it, and still not have issues with aspects of it. The internet desires black and white, but the spectrum is various shades of grey. More than 50, even.

Andrew James
Admin

For those that saw the SWOT episode of Silicon Valley:
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/15/silicon-valley-read-let-blaine-die-swot-board

devolutionary
Guest

Barely put a dent in Season 2 yet. Looking forward to it.

Robert Reineke
Guest

Yeah, the SWOT board is the clear highlight of Season 2, so far. And Season 2 has been very funny.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Furthermore, I think FURY ROAD is incredible for its singular vision, and rather unique type of action filmmaking, has a lot of forwardthinking (and often satirically hysterical) gender-politics, but is still a rather exhausting movie to watch.

I liked it a lot more on second viewing. I could digest a lot more on a second viewing, but I doubt it will be anywhere near my favourite movie of the year. Expectations are a difficult thing.

Ultimo Lee
Guest

Opening:
In-house business: 00:31
Mad Max: Fury Road [SPOILERS] 5:48
Pitch Perfect 2 [SPOILERS] 1:27:38
Game of Thrones – Episode 6 [SPOILERS] 1:45:14
The Watch List: 3:07:25
Next Week: 3:26:59
End: 3:30:19

Goon
Guest

I’ll walk into the minefield.

“You have no business to tell them that.”

Never. Ever. Ever defer your own opinion. Stop and listen to someone whose life experience can bring another point of view, consider it, allow their feelings to be sincere, be kind, know when to walk away if you want to preserve a friendship, but proposing they are still reading something incorrectly is just fine. Everyone can only speak for themselves, and anyone who claims their opinions to be correct by mere virtue of their identity is full of shit, because they only speak for themselves.

“I don’t know because I’m not a woman” is a cop out. You’re not required to have an opinion, but having one is not a bad thing.

Otherwise, you can’t tell this person (yes, I am using an extreme example because this is all based in rape.) they are wrong.
https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

To use milder examples. My former Criticalmasscast co-host Greg, a gay man, paid to see Ender’s Game knowing full well what Orson Scott Card believes, whereas I know another gay man who says that any person who pays to see it is a homophobe. Who do I defer to? I know someone who boycotts The Simpsons because Homer has driven drunk without consequences countless times. And The Simpsons is my all time favorite show, in spite of that same fact and that my father was killed by a drunk driver.

And locally the same alt weekly has a film critic/feminist who tours the country debating Ron Jeremy, advocating that porn be banned and that nobody in the industry likes it, and another feminist who is a former stripper who considers sex work “liberating”.

All of these people are more than their identities, and forbidding yourself from telling any of them that you think they read something wrong, to me, is so much more condescending because you reduce them to those identities and stop seeing them as individuals.

Nat Almirall
Guest

The impression I got from the argument was that Matt misinterpreted Andrew’s stance, and the bulk of the discussion spread from there. Not to put words in either one’s mouth, but it seemed Matt was making a moralistic argument and Andrew a stylistic one, and in a sentence that I may never write again (so I have to seize this opportunity), Kurt swooped in at the last moment to calmly and briefly resolve everything.

But in a larger sense, I like your summary, and largely agree. Well put!

Kurt Halfyard
Guest

Also Like Goon’s summary. As for myself getting in between Andrew and Matt who don’t listen to each other, I had to drop out of the call and email them to let me into the conversation trying about 10 times to get a word in edgewise and failing to Daybreak-the-noise, I’m not sure how that plays out in the edit of the show…

Nat Almirall
Guest

It came across quite hilariously — especially your triumphant re-entry line.

Also, I like that Andrew plugs our show more than Matt.

Kurt Halfyard
Guest

Deservedly so.

Gerry
Guest

Re Andrew’s remark that the feminist writers ‘watched it wrong’, with maximum respect to Andrew I think that he listened to Matt’s remarks wrong.

I could see what the GOT writers were trying to do but I think the feminists views were absolutely valid,(as relayed by the Row Three podcasters, I haven’t read the article). I think GOT should have hired women to write and direct the 2 rape scene episodes.

I think that focusing on as yet unseen payoffs is missing the point the feminist writers made, and more power to them for making their points.

A gay man director, Derek Jarman, wouldn’t show the violent death by red hot poker up the ass of Edward the Second in his film Edward II as he didn’t want yet another gay man meeting his death in a violent way in the media.

The Reek plot advancement could have been achieved in different ways. Use your imagination GOT showrunners.

PS, on Veep, a show that I think is as least as funny as Silicon Valley, they tackle sexual molestation in a very intelligent way in the current season.

Gerry
Guest

PPS, unlike the reviewers I thought the latest episode of GOT was fairly pedestrian, bar Bron, keeping up the ‘standard’ of this more mundane season.

Andrew James
Admin

***GOT spoilers***

***GOT spoilers***

***GOT spoilers***
Oh man, all of the one on one interactions in this episode were great. Cersei vs Grandma in particular. Anything with Tyrion as well – from the somber moments with Jorah to the interaction with the slavers. Then there was Cersei vs Baelish as well as Baelish encountering the fanatics. Jamie and Bron talking/singing was hilarious even upto and throughout the battle. Even Arya and faceless; though it was the weakest bit in the episode, I still liked it – particularly her story to the young dying girl.

This is all of the stuff that I live for in GoT.

Gerry
Guest

The biggest problem with this season of GOT, for me, is it’s predictable and prosaic nature, the fact that story strands are not terribly involving and are being dragged out to the point where I think the writers could have achieved just as much in half the number of episodes.

Bailish talking to Cersei about Sansa was a rare surprising moment.

There is no story strand with the emotional impact of ‘I will be your champion’ this season. For me it’s terribly uninspired.

You like it. That’s fine, we’re entitled to our different opinions.

Andrew James
Admin

I guess I would break it down like this. It seems to me that there are three main categories in which people are having trouble with that scene. And I simply don’t agree with them being problems:

1) It’s a diversion from the books. I guess I say, get over it. Just about every screen adaptation from a literary source is altered in some ways. Some are small, some are big. From what I’ve been told, the screen version of what happens here is far more tame than what occurs in the book.

2) The scene uses rape to advance Theon’s character, rather than show it for the horrible thing that it is. While I think this is maybe the most valid argument, I still don’t agree and it is the reasoning behind my “you’re watching it wrong” statement. First of all, one of the things I’ve learned about GoT is to never assume anything and (unlike LOST) everything is done for a reason(s). So to say this sequence isn’t going to further Sansa as a person and a character, (for better or worse) is highly unlikely. Yes, it shows Theon (possibly) snapping out of his brain washing, but it leads to my second point: if you’re watching and listening to the scene, I would argue that Sansa is very much in the spot(black)light for the majority of the sequence. Her broken will, her terribly sad face and most importantly the horrific screams and crying. There are four more episodes left in this season – let’s wait and see where Sansa ends up shall we? On the other hand, potentially Sansa will never “rise” and will continuously be used by evil people for the duration of her existence. This is also something that happens in real life. It’s devastating. And devastation is part of what makes GoT so great. If it was gummy bears and rainbows, nobody would be watching.

3) Rape is ugly and should not be used to further plot (or ever shown on screen at all). Ridiculous. This is as egregious as the people who think that violence should not be shown in movies or toned down and not be so brutal. Rape is a real thing that happens in the world (unfortunately quite often), especially in the world of Westeros. Women are used time and time again for many different things. It’s part of what makes many characters more sympathetic or worth championing than others and absolutely advances various characters – both the victim, the rapist(s) and others indirectly involved, just like it does in real life. To just pretend it doesn’t happen and not show it for the horror that it is, is preposterous in my mind. If that’s something that is sensitive or offensive to someone, I can totally understand that. Then don’t watch a show (or movie) like GoT that has clearly set itself up at this point (over 50 hours!) so viewers know exactly what types of things they’re going to be exposed to.

Now, if rape were being glorified or shown in some sort of a “cartoonish” nature, then I can totally understand the problems one might have. But I think GoT shows its rape sequences (and various other bad things) exactly as the horrific thing that they are – as best as a camera and actors can capture such a violation.

So in conclusion, what bugs me most about the Mary Sue article is not that they’re not covering GoT anymore. It’s the reasoning behind it. Just say, you’re uncomfortable watching someone get raped and it’s happened three times in this show now and be done with it. I can understand and even respect that decision. But don’t try to make excuses or come up with straw man arguments that are flimsy at best, totally false or ignorant at worse just because something on screen makes you uncomfortable.

Gerry
Guest

One of Matt’s excellent points that, with respect Andrew, you don’t seem to have heard is that our culture paints women who dress up attractively for a night out as ‘asking to be raped’. Is this any different from fundamentalist cultures who make women cover themselves so that THEY don’t drive men into a raping frenzy, and punish women for being raped i.e. it’s the woman’s fault for being raped.

Leave aside the fact that the rapist probably dressed just as attractively for his night out as the woman he raped.

Women, feminist or otherwise, have an absolute right to be pissed off by depictions of rape. They weren’t ‘watching it wrong’.

It had already been established that Ramsay is a psychopath who treats women like shit, e.g. he hunts them to death with the hound keepers daughter. You don’t need to re-state that with rape.

Reek, a pitiful creature, could have been made to see Ramsay’s degrading treatment of Sansa (that will probably make him turn on Ramsay at a key moment, successfully or not is a different matter) in a different way if the GOT writers posessed a bit more imagination. Using rape as a substitute for lack of imagination on the writers part is not acceptable.

Plus Reek already witnessed Ramsay’s madness and degrading of Sansa at the dining table.

Even if Sansa stabs Ramsay through the heart in a later episode it won’t justify the rape.

Kurt Halfyard
Guest

I disagree completely with this comment, Gerry. Just because a character as an aspect established, we should now stop him/her from those things?” That strikes me as a rather blunt and foolish approach to drama. Just say it once and never underscore, re-work, further, etc.? I humbly disagree.

I also have said from the get-go, we are judging the show-runners mid-season, can we please wait until the season is done before passing judgement?

Goon
Guest

For your consideration:
If Sansa is to marry Ramsay:
– In medieval times (and as established in previous episodes actually) the consummation is to be witnessed to be declared valid. So as a plot point with Sansa and Winterfell, it has to happen? I guess? Don’t remember if they wrote a way around consummation with Tyrion.
– Whether or not you want them to go through with it, if they are, and a witness is supposed to be there, why wouldn’t you use it to also advance Theon in the process?

Rick
Guest

Kurt I can’t go with you down that path.

As a thing released weekly in 10 segments there is no problems whatsoever in judging it episodically. opening / closing credits and 50 minutes of content arranged to be in that single episode.

Sure things can make more sense in the grand scheme but each piece of content as they are forged by the people making the show can be judged in the format presented to the audience.

Andrew James
Admin

50% agree. I certainly talk about one episode being better than this episode or that episode, but what I think Kurt is trying to say is that making rash judgments about the entire series (or any one individual character or plot movement) based off of 3 minutes from one episode is kind of shallow thinking. To which I agree.

Kurt
Guest

Exactly, Andrew. We are getting ‘novels’ published in weekly ‘chapters’. I don’t judge an entire novel by the info from one chapter. Wait until the entire 5th season arc is done with SANSA before passing judgement on the show-writers.

Kurt
Guest

I would also like to say that when we do GoT recaps on the CINECAST, we are not passing judgement on the overall value of the show, more speculating what is going to happen, and digest what has happened in a very complex set of characters and events. It’s a conversation about the details of the show, and some of the craft. We are not really passing judgement episode by episode on how this should be taken in larger context, culturally (as we often do with film reviews). I’m not sure if that was clear to everyone or not. This is part of my beef with the whole ThingMarySue thing.

If we judged/reviewed films after clicking them off when they were only half-way done, I’d expect listeners to come down on us, too.

Gerry
Guest

So Kurt, if by the end of the season, or next season, (when you’ve read the whole book so to speak)Reek, inspired by seeing the rape, kills Ramsay to save Sansa are you saying that that makes the rape acceptable?

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Can you find a simpler way to belittle my arguments, please?
IF by the end of the season we see Sansa kicking the Boltons the holy hell out of Winterfell, (likely with some help from Theon) it will be the continuing story. Nothing justifies rape, but this is drama, not real life, and bad things happen to good people all the time, that’s why drama rhymes with trauma.

Gerry
Guest

Kurt, what you describe is highly likely to happen. If it doesn’t the rape will have been gratuitous and for titilation only, and a subversion of Chekov’s gun, a sign of poor writing.

For me it still doesn’t justify the rape. Drama can be written equally effectively but less graphically if the writers are more imaginative.

For me it’s yet another example of the predictable nature of this season of GOT.

Re me belittling you, that was not my intention. If I accept your remark it means there is no real debate or argument, just Kurt’s views and everyone else meekly accepting them.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Oh, not at all, but the way it was framed boils all my arguments down to the worst kind of broth, and actually the one thing I AM NOT SAYING! Hence the belittlement, if it was a joke, sorry, my reading of sarcasm in text is not very good.

Game of Thrones, from season 1 episode 1 has established that bad things happen to good people (Bran getting pushed out the window), but, hopefully, on a long enough timeline, the moral arc of Game of Thrones will bend towards justice (Dragonlady, John Snow), What is happening to Sansa is and always has been about SANSA, who is the key to the north. They happened to double dip in the drama by showing Theon too. It’s a strawman argument to bend it only about Theon in that scene, and then blame GoT’s obsession with sexual violence on the desire to motivate a male character. Can it not do both? And what is the problem with that?

However, I can acknowledge that people see what they want to see, I’ve been guilty of that before, many times, just ask Gamble.

I’ve never been one to demand that people be forced into my opinion…

Goon
Guest

Amanda Marcotte’s take from a few days ago. I don’t know about her sometimes, but she’s a pretty decent writer when she is trying to defend something rather than when she’s on the attack:

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

Andrew James
Admin

Everything in here is win. Thanks for the article, you Goon.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

That article is a great find, Goon! It reads almost like a Louis CK stand-up routine in the best possible way. LOVE.

Gerry
Guest

From the article

‘But there were other scenes in the past that got rape wrong. “This isn’t the first time Game of Thrones has come under fire for its depiction of rape; most recently, a season-four scene between Jaime and Cersei in the crypt that held Joffrey’s dead body drew widespread outcry, especially because it was written as more consensual in the books than it was in the show.” So, because someone did something wrong in the past, they aren’t allowed to get it right in the future? What’s the point of criticizing and engaging, if we refuse to allow people to grow and change? They screwed up in the past. I think they made up for it by listening and giving us a rape scene that actually hits all the marks.’

‘I think they made up for it by listening and giving us a rape scene that actually hits all the marks.’

That’s pretty fucked up to me and not at all ‘It reads almost like a Louis CK stand-up routine in the best possible way’.

Goon
Guest

“That’s pretty fucked up to me ”

You’re going to have to explain why, which is odd, because it looks like you’re intentionally looking to take this out of context, despite already providing some of the context.

Gerry
Guest

Goon, I don’t agree with the writer of the article on many points. e.g. she wondered if Reek would ‘hulk out’ while witnessing the rape. I thought Ramsay’s conditioning of Reek was so sophisticated (‘Give me your hand Reek’ Reek expects to be punished but instead ‘I forgive you Reek’) I never thought that would happen.

I disagree profoundly that the only way to let the viewers know that rape has happened or to know that rape is bad is to show it. To me that’s infant level reasoning. There are lots of ways imaginative writers could achieve that. Plus societal awareness of rape in news and media will fill in the blanks.

She seems adept at stating the bleeding obvious in several of her points, e.g in her argument about Sansa ‘being reduced to a pawn’.

She says ‘For Ramsay, Sansa, and Theon to maintain consistent characterization, there is literally no other way this – the rape -could have gone down.’ and says it wasn’t gratuitous. It was entirely unwarranted and, as I’ve said, with more talented writers with more imagination could have been conveyed in different ways. Ditto for the other rapes that she says are essential to have to been seen on GOT. (See above posts for debate on this weeks rape).

No one was expecting a last minute rescue of Sansa.

Re her comment ‘But there were other scenes in the past that got rape wrong. “This isn’t the first time Game of Thrones has come under fire for its depiction of rape; most recently, a season-four scene between Jaime and Cersei in the crypt that held Joffrey’s dead body drew widespread outcry, especially because it was written as more consensual in the books than it was in the show.” So, because someone did something wrong in the past, they aren’t allowed to get it right in the future? What’s the point of criticizing and engaging, if we refuse to allow people to grow and change? They screwed up in the past. I think they made up for it by listening and giving us a rape scene that actually hits all the marks.’

For the life of me I can’t see why the Cersei rape was necessary or what it achieved.

‘I think they made up for it by listening and giving us a rape scene that actually hits all the marks.’

That remark borders on being extremely sick, to me.

Just because a writer writes for a blog doesn’t mean that their points are right and conflicting points from other blogs are wrong Goon.

Gerry
Guest

Some further reflections on the article. She says

‘It would be ludicrous to do a series that investigates the consequences of a patriarchal, semi-feudal society where women are used as objects to be sold and swapped in the game of thrones and then pretend that somehow rape isn’t a part of that process. That’s the kind of romanticizing—sure, we treat women like objects, but it’s not like we treat them like objects—that this series was written to criticize. In adapting the series for TV, they have to deal with this fact that rape is a part of this kind of society. It would be cowardly to suggest that you can somehow organize a society that disempowers women to such a degree without sexual violence being the immediate and predictable result of that.’

When it comes to rape our current society, sadly, isn’t that much different to fundamentalist societies or ‘a patriarchal, semi-feudal society’ as depicted in the show.

Check out 2 docs, The Invisible War, about rape in the US military and The Hunting Ground, about rape on college campuses.

Rape in marriage has only recently been regarded as an issue of concern and, to reiterate Matt’s point, women are raised to think, because of the news and entertainment media that rape is their fault and they must actively avoid inciting rapy feelings in men.

Veep dealt better with the emotional aftermath of sexual molestation in a few episodes of it’s current season than GOT did with the emotional aftermath of rape in it’s entire run.

She says that GOT has reinvented storytelling because it sprung a few surprises and no one’s ever done that before. Nope. It’s essentially I Claudius in a fantasy world.

Kurt
Guest

And everyone should watch “I, Claudius” before they die. Still one of the best things ever made for television.

Nat Almirall
Guest

Kurt, if you ever end up doing a Movie Club Special on “I, Claudius,” I want in on that. (I guess we could do it over at Still Watching the Skies, but I don’t want to speak for Robert and Cody).

Thomas Wishloff
Guest

Pair it with The Pacific.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

I would argue, that with Ramsay they just go so over the top with him as a psychopath that he comes across as very cartoonish villain. Previously the crazy villain was Joffrey but he seemed more of a real character. I don’t know if that is because of the actor playing Joffrey or how he went from spoiled prince to tyrant of a king. Compared to Ramsay who seems to be constantly over the top malicious all the time from the very beginning.

To me he has become one of the least interesting plotlines and I’m just waiting to the eventual point where they kill him off (I haven’t read the later books, I’m just guessing that will be the payoff to the audience).

Goon
Guest

From what I’ve understood Ramsay is nowhere near as insane as he is in the books, and in the books everyone is aware of his reputation, whereas on the show its privileged information.

Sean Kelly
Guest

It’s somewhat ironic that there was a large outcry over an (off camera) rape scene in GAME OF THRONES, yet I don’t remember people calling for a boycott of THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO, which has a much more graphic rape, which most definitely is used as a plot device.

Perhaps people did boycott it, except it was not as vocal.

Kurt
Guest

I think the argument goes that rape as a plot device to spur a man to action, vs. to spur a woman to action…because Lisbeth takes action for what that creep does to her early on in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, it was less controversial than the perception that Sansa Stark is raped to get Theon to snap out of his torture-conditioning from Ramsay.

This leads into my key point of passing judgement before the season is done. I believe it will lead SANSA to take action in the North, and be more than ready for any shit Littlefinger plans on pulling when he arrives with his army from the Vale.

Goon
Guest

“she wondered if Reek would ‘hulk out’ while witnessing the rape.”

No she doesn’t. She explains why it would be foolish for someone to expect that to happen.

“I disagree profoundly that the only way to let the viewers know that rape has happened or to know that rape is bad is to show it.”

I agree. And GoT didnt “show it” beyond facial expressions and sound. And the author argues that if they did, people would be angry and call it titillating. Which is one of the many reasons behind her “finally got it right/hit the mark” argument. She defends the scenes on storytelling grounds, and thinks the presentation was effective in terms of showing it as horrific without being gratuitous. Maybe “hit the mark” is crass to you, but you’re painting it as if she thought it was something else.

“It was entirely unwarranted”
Because why, exactly? And as Kurt has stated, we don’t know where its going. Sometimes these things are only seen as warranted or unwarranted in retrospect, which leads to…

“For the life of me I can’t see why the Cersei rape was necessary or what it achieved.”
I agree. It hasn’t gone anywhere and it didn’t really do anything to shape the characters. I haven’t read the books but some have said it wasn’t supposed to be rape or that the show just did a horrible job trying to convey what was going on psychologically.

“That remark borders on being extremely sick, to me.”
You’ve now said this twice without explaining why this specific comment is sick.

“Just because a writer writes for a blog doesn’t mean that their points are right and conflicting points from other blogs are wrong Goon.”

Where are you getting the idea I believe that to be true? Especially when I introduced this link by saying I generally don’t care for this writer?

I’ll point out by the way, that within a few messages you’ve gone from saying you can’t tell women that they read the scene wrong, to saying this woman not only read the scene wrong, but is also sick in the head.

Gerry
Guest

Goon you said “she wondered if Theon would ‘hulk out’ while witnessing the rape.”
No she doesn’t. She explains why it would be foolish for someone to expect that to happen.

She says “And so, one of my first thoughts while watching that scene was, Is this where Theon finally snaps? In that moment, I thought he might attack, and maybe even kill, Ramsay,” Trolio writes. (SHE, the writer, says) ‘Yep, I think a lot of us were wondering that, too. ‘

You said GOT didn’t show the rape’

GOT essentially did show the rape. You could similarly argue that the Cersei rape wasn’t seen because you didn’t see Jamie’s penis going into Cersei.

You said “It was entirely unwarranted”
Because why, exactly? And as Kurt has stated, we don’t know where its going. Sometimes these things are only seen as warranted or unwarranted in retrospect, which leads to…

It seems to me that if it empowers Reek to try and help Sansa or empowers Sansa to fight back it still doesn’t justify showing it. If it doesn’t lead to either of those things it was there to be entirely gratuitous and titilating.
As I’ve said several times better writing could have achieved what the scene was aiming for in different ways just as effectively.

Saying that the writers have gone from getting a rape scene wrong to getting it right is fairly appalling to me and messed up. I don’t know how to explain it better than that. You seem to see nothing wrong in that. You’re entitled to your views Goon.

You said ‘I’ll point out by the way, that within a few messages you’ve gone from saying you can’t tell women that they read the scene wrong, to saying this woman not only read the scene wrong, but is also sick in the head. ‘

You’ve skipped over why I said ‘Women, feminist or otherwise, have an absolute right to be pissed off by depictions of rape. They weren’t ‘watching it wrong’. Could I direct you to those remarks above.

I differ in my views to the writer of the article and have endeavoured to explain why. Saying that one comment is bordering on being extremely sick is not implying that I think the author was sick in the head. I don’t think that at all, I just disagree with some of what she said, which is allowed.

You said “Just because a writer writes for a blog doesn’t mean that their points are right and conflicting points from other blogs are wrong Goon.”
Where are you getting the idea I believe that to be true? Especially when I introduced this link by saying I generally don’t care for this writer?

I apologise for this remark. It does seem a bit pompous of me to have said that.

Rick
Guest

I don’t agree and especially think that stance breaks down when put up against large societal / systemic issues.

Goon
Guest

Wanna elaborate, or put in a pin in it and we can talk about it next pub even?

Rick
Guest

I just think there are things that are such pervasive aspects of our world that people who don’t grow up in something are missing major contexts for certain things that are larger societal issues, and in cases like that I don’t have any problem deferring to people(plural) who have experience to speak on it.

Goon
Guest

You’re talking about deferring to people based on experience, and I am talking about deferring to people based on their identity. If you think identity = experience, I think that subscribes to a gender or racial essentialism which I can’t get behind. Correct me if I’m not getting you.

But even in the former’s case, I’d say I value experience, but I don’t defer to it outright. My general view when it comes to opinion is to try to have an ‘and-and’ mindset rather than an ‘either-or’, that we can have contradictory or multiple ideas in mind at once. And besides, a lived-in experience can bring wisdom to one person and make another person a prejudiced bigot. We’re all still individuals with character flaws. If we just deferred to experience outright nobody would get a second opinion from a doctor, and expert witnesses would replace juries.

But I recognize you are saying “Plural” here, in which case I’d say ultimately you are probably still making your own judgment of one group within X over another group within X. No one group is a monolith, not even the shitty ones.

Rick
Guest

Okay I didn’t know the people were actually on those poles and were circus acrobats and athletes. This movie gets better and better the more I read about it.

Glorious Treasure of a film.

Craig
Guest

Matt Gamble went full retard, and as everyone knows….

Gerry
Guest

I think you need to swap Andrew and Kurt’s positions and expressions in the Cinecast intro picture.

And maybe give Kurt a mouse to click out of the conversation.

Goon
Guest

Whoa nelly. Watched GoT with Nikki. Expected one reaction, got another. Anyone who comes to the next film blogger night who asks her about the episode will have an interesting discussion.

Rick
Guest

This is the most interesting thing I have read re: the whole GoT stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/05/19/game-of-thrones-has-always-been-a-show-about-rape/

Kurt
Guest

From that article: “The science fiction and fantasy site the Mary Sue declared “We Will No Longer Be Promoting HBO’s ‘Game of Thrones’ ” in a piece that seemed to fatally misunderstand the difference between doing journalism about and criticism of a show and acting as a publicity subcontractor for HBO.”

Burn.

rot
Guest

Kurt, I don’t think you mentioned it here but elsewhere, and I think it bears repeating: within the context of the show as much as we have been exposed to it, Sansa is a far more important character than Theon, and the Mary Sue article tried to make an argument that the male gaze was to emphasize the more important male character which is just fundamentally false, whatever sex you are. This is gender theory misinterpreting story details to serve its own end. I thought the issue was going to be about the rape which I actually have a problem with. Maybe if the male gaze expressed glee I could see a case… you have a character forced against his will to watch (who has been castrated previously, so let’s have some sympathy for this character) and his reaction is a normal reaction, and the reasoning for him being in this scene is to torture him, which has been established over and over. So the male gaze in this scene is not inherently indulgent and not inherently sexist; a woman has every right to be offended by their own interpretation, but it’s a theory-based, feminist literate interpretation, not one embedded in the narrative for all to see. I saw the same thing and interpreted it as merciful of the director to cut away from the brutality because a woman bent over naked being raped visually would be the worse act of indulgence. How about no rape at all… I am for that. Between the two choices left to depict the scene, I prefer the one where the most of the rape is left up to the imagination, because I find the male gaze is the show entire, not Theon. The problem is not this scene, it is how sexual abuse is played as lurid in a show that is for entertainment, and repeatedly, beyond any narrative need, just because sex and violence sell.

rot
Guest

…also there’s a weird irony that in the Mary Sue interpretation of Theon he also has no agency and we are now talking about the male gaze of the writer/director. Feminist theory tends to emphasize the politics of the narrative-as-construct, and de-emphasize narrative logic within the world created.

Patrik
Guest

As a book reader, I’m definitely not laughing at you guys regarding the Arya stuff. I found it a bit tedious reading through all that stuff in the book as well.

Rick
Guest

I really like Book 4 but a lot of that is stuff that people think is coming later.

Thomas Wishloff
Guest

I’m surprised more people haven’t decided to just up and quit GoT as the show has progressed. I dropped the thing back in season two…

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

More people are joining in than leaving:

Game of Thrones: Viewers per episode (in millions)

Season: Red 1 (2011) Green 2 (2012) Blue 3 (2013) Purple 4 (2014) Yellow 5 (2015)

SEASON Ep. 1 Ep. 2 Ep. 3 Ep. 4 Ep. 5 Ep. 6 Ep. 7 Ep. 8 Ep. 9 Ep. 10
Season 1 2.22 2.20 2.44 2.45 2.58 2.44 2.40 2.72 2.66 3.04
Season 2 3.86 3.76 3.77 3.65 3.90 3.88 3.69 3.86 3.38 4.20
Season 3 4.37 4.27 4.72 4.87 5.35 5.50 4.84 5.13 5.22 5.39
Season 4 6.64 6.31 6.59 6.95 7.16 6.40 7.20 7.17 6.95 7.09
Season 5 8.00 6.81 6.71 6.82 6.56 6.24 N/A N/A N/A N/A

Thomas Wishloff
Guest

That genuinely surprises me.

Rick
Guest

So something interesting about the Ramsay stuff is that it is predictable with how he has been built as a character. Which IS strange because one thing GoT likes doing is undercutting people when things become familiar.

So I wonder if the wedding night sexual violence is the expected route for Ramsay does the show still have the real ace up its sleeve about what he will do that is unpredictable.

Sean Kelly
Guest

Just so everyone’s clear, the actual date of Victoria’s Day in Canada is May 24. The reason the holiday was a week early this year was because of a rule stating that the holiday take place on the Monday BEFORE the 25th, which makes things a little awkward this year since the 25th is ON a Monday.

Also, I can’t recall a time when Victoria Day Weekend and Memorial Day Weekend were the same week (though I suppose it happened at least once).

antho42
Guest

Mad Max gets better on rewatch. Most of my complains of the film are no longer valid. A truly operatic experience. The Dolby sound enhances the film.

Kurt
Guest

Agreed on every level. All my initial complaints kind of washed away on second viewing (with Atmos Sound)

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