Mamo #260: The Amazing Spider-Mamo

Everybody’s favourite web-slinger returns, but did the world want him back? The Amazing Spider-Man reboots a barely-a-decade-old franchise with new stars and a not-new story, while this summer’s major players (The Avengers, The Dark Knight Rises) and the genre’s future gambles (Guardians of the Galaxy, anyone?) argue that this new Spidey might be too little, too late.

To download this episode, use this URL: http://rowthree.com/audio/mamo/mamo260.mp3

 

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antho42
Guest

Matt Brown — you are interesting film critic/aficionada. You are the only person associated with Rowthree that I am unable to predict your reactions towards a film; I see no patterns in your film taste.

antho42
Guest

I found this film to be “ballsy,” by overplaying the romanatic elementes and underplaying action sequences. I thought it was better than The Avengers, which, like all the other Marvel produced films, felt very “corporate” (Avengers needed more iambic parameter/witty dialogue).

PS — Blonde Emma Stone >>>>> Ginger Emma Stone

Sean Patrick Kelly
Guest

You know, I wasn’t happy that half the film was spent re-telling the Spider-Man origin, but I thought that the second half was entertaining enough to make up for it.

I’m not going to nitpick at all about The Lizard, since the character is pretty much exactly what I expected him to be. True, he is one of the more fantastical villains, but I personally find them more fun.

Also, I personally would not be too fond of Kraven the Hunter in a film. I would much rather prefer that they do Electro or Mysterio.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Mysterio is really one they should do, especially if they are going to do the film in 3D. I wouldn’t be surprised if Vulture isn’t done at some point either.

Sean Patrick Kelly
Guest

It would be very ironic if they decide to use Vulture, which was apparently one of the elements that resulted in Spider-Man 4 imploding.

Jonathan
Guest

Bad in the Raimi days, I had always hoped that Bruce Campbell would play Mysterio. He unfortunately wouldn’t fit the tone of the new ones though.

Jericho Slim
Guest

I’ve always thought that some variation of Kraven’s Last Hunt would be awesome on the big screen.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I’ve always had a soft spot for Kraven as a villain. He’s always been one of the more grounded and interesting IMO.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

Yeah, that would make an incredible movie. The question is whether or not they could get the audience to believe that Spider-Man was really dead. Perhaps go Sony could leak a fake story that the talent was leaving (so for a 3rd movie?) and that Sony would reboot the series again? Basically give them reason why Spider-Man is “killed” by Kraven.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Enjoyed the podcast, but I pretty much disagree 100% with everything you said about the movie. Two (spoiler-free) things I want to touch on:

1. If I’m Sony, I don’t touch the Avengers with a ten foot pole. Why would I dilute my product if it’s doing fine on its own? I want scarcity. I want Spider-Man on screen to be an event that happens once every 2-3 years, and not have him be just one of seven or eight people that all get equal screen time. Why put him on equal footing with Thor and the Black Widow? And are they gonna pull a “Pepper Potts” on Gwen Stacy? No thanks. Maybe a 30 second cameo at most or a visual gag, like a web hanging off Stark tower and Stark complaining about bugs. And I am also glad that there was no Avengers crap in Spider-Man, because then you start getting into continuity issues, etc, etc. Later for all that. Let Spidey be a solo star in his own universe.

2. It always baffles me when people fall prey to the “UP” syndrome. The first fifteen minutes of Up was great, but people complain that the rest of the movie wasn’t as good. Well, there were reasons for that, but – putting those reasons aside – sometimes there are great scenes in movies. That scene between Peter and Stacy near the end is a great scene, but part of what makes it great is its uniqueness in the movie. I wouldn’t want to see a whole movie performed in that manner or intensity.

Cringe
Guest

Wow, just saw TASM, I haven’t felt this so indifferent towards a summer blockbuster in a long time. Usually I’ll have get enjoyment out of watching them or enjoyment picking them apart. But neither in this case. Me and my buddies had a bigger discussion on the slice of pizza we had afterwards.

David Brook
Guest

My thoughts exactly. There was nothing particularly wrong with the film, but there was nothing special about it either. For me it offered little that Sam Raimi’s first Spiderman film hadn’t already given me and came across as a bit dull rather than ‘deep’ or more emotionally engaging.

As for antho’s comment about The Avengers feeling ‘corporate’ compared to this, I had the opposite opinion. Yes, the build up to The Avengers was obviously a huge corporate exercise, but the film had so much more life to it than TASM, which felt like the contractual obligation that it was.

Goon
Guest

I finally got around to ASM. It’s a piece of shit. Peter Parker is an asshole, Lizard has a generic arc, inexpicable and/or shitty motivations, and every other character is generic, bland, and/or dumb. Often all three.

Lizard’s internal monologue is also among the worst things I’ve seen in any film of any stripe, absolutely laughably executed. All the science gadgets look and sound like futuristic scifi as imagined by people from the year 1991. The film is ugly as sin. It’s not about anything.

It sucks.

Jordan
Guest

Tell us how you really feel about it.

Goon
Guest

I’ll let a gimmick do it for me:
http://badassdigest.com/2012/07/06/film-crit-hulk-smash-the-amazing-spider-man-has-99-problems-but-an-uncle-be/

As stated before, even when in agreement, I absolutely hate the gimmick wrapped around these essays. It takes a lot of effort to get through this gimmick, and the only way I got through it was because I agree with a lot of what is being written and wanted to keep going. if you can’t read through it, I understand.

antho42
Guest

The only gimmicky part is the Caps Lock, which can be changed to lower case. Other than that, I enjoyed his essays; it is nice to see academic popular culture writing. I do hate the Caps Lock, but I cannot blame the guy because if it was not for the gimmick, I would have never stumbled upon him.

PS- Sam Strange is the worst gimmick I have ever encountered on the internet.

antho42
Guest

The Film Critic Hulk gimmick: BRANDING.

Goon
Guest

I can’t argue that it hasn’t been successful. I can only argue that now that I got roped in, I want to be able to read it easier!

antho42
Guest

Goon:
FilmCriticHulk
@gemko @mrbeaks http://www.convertcase.net WORKS WONDERS FOR THE CAP IMPAIRED!

Matthew Fabb
Guest

If he actually wrote in a more Hulk-like style it would work better, but then it no longer works as an intelligent article, most of which his are.

Antho42
Guest

I agree

Goon
Guest

Did nobody see this this weekend, or does nobody really have anything to say about it, no passion for it?

I don’t care that extremely about movie logic, but since I already dont like the movie over the last few days things are really really piling up… why need the cranes when he can swing back and forth like he always does? Why does he need to be held by Conners when he can still stick to walls? Why is Spiderman labelling his camera “property of Peter Parker? It goes on and on and on from there.

Rick Vance
Guest

I can answer all those but it seems like that would be superfluous. To me I greatly enjoyed the movie because they were able to capture my perception of that character and the milieu of his world.

Maybe as the Matt’s brought up it is just an age thing, because I know I am younger than a majority of the people here discussing it and everything in it worked from a character standpoint from a motivation standpoint and a providing stakes standpoint.

Also the action was dynamic and varied.

Goon
Guest

“I can answer all those but it seems like that would be superfluous.”

Please attempt.

“Also the action was dynamic and varied.”

In the way that attempting to sing Pavarotti while your hand is being pureed in a blender ends up dynamic and varied. The action isn’t typically boring, it’s just scattershot, jumpy, awkward, and painful to watch.

This is my ‘at a loss…’ for the summer, I think. I am baffled that people find this passable, let alone good. Someone… please, please make an attempt to defend the Lizard’s movitations, it’s production design, internal monologue. Schumacher could have even done better with this villain. He’s even worse than Mr. Freeze.

Rick Vance
Guest

Okay

1. Straight swinging: He was clearly having problems with his usual method up until that scene, added to the fact that it is clear at that point that these people are supporting what he is doing I can totally see it helping him through it. I guess I don’t need more than that.

2. That scene was for Conner’s benefit more than Peter’s at that point and if I remember at that point the Lizard had crushed his webshooters so if he was falling away from the side of the building the catch would be required.

3. It is Peter’s camera not Spider-Man’s and a guy like that with an Aunt and Uncle like that I can totally see someone labelling it like that, (probably Aunt May)

I think the intent with the Lizard is that it is supposed to be ‘The Lizard’ and ‘Dr. Conners’ in the same head fighting for control, made even more clear by the grab scene and the final one. So when he injected himself for the first time he was unprepared for what he unlocked in his brain and that personality started overtaking him and changing his goals from curing people to improving people.

I had no problem with the design at all.

As to the action being scatter shot, I guess I could see that but I can follow Michael Bay movies fine and this stuff was easy. It very well conveyed exactly how an agile smaller person would fight against a hulking lizard and I found it very well put together.

Rick Vance
Guest

Oh forgot to add I absolutely love Mr. Freeze from Batman & Robin but that film and this one are doing completely different things.

Schumacher’s Batman movies are better than Burton’s. They are just playing from different aspects of the character.

Goon
Guest

“He was clearly having problems with his usual method up until that scene”
Explain how his usual method would not have worked in more detail please. I dont buy this. The scene is there for the corny crane union support thing.

“That scene was for Conner’s benefit more than Peter’s at that point and if I remember at that point the Lizard had crushed his webshooters”
the latter half of this sentence makes my point. He can stick to walls, and he’s at the side of one.

“It is Peter’s camera not Spider-Man’s” No. Lizard uses this camera as evidence to go and get Peter. Peter has it set up IN A WEB to take a photo of Lizard. He was handing his identity over on a silver platter. He should have/could have removed the label, especially when he’s the one hunting down the Lizard, not just caught off guard as Parker minding his own business. It’s Peter being a MORON.

It’s also hilarious that in this modern update, Peter is using this kind of camera, but that’s another thing altogether.

“I think the intent with the Lizard is that it is supposed to be ‘The Lizard’ and ‘Dr. Conners’ in the same head fighting for control…”
That they can’t convey a simple Jekyll/Hyde story with any clarity after it has already been done so many times is a glaring strike against the film.

Goon
Guest

“Schumacher’s Batman movies are better than Burton’s.”

Send this man to Arkham.

Rick Vance
Guest

Cutting my responses off at the knees is a cheap way to respond.

Jonathan
Guest

Ten years ago, this is the kind of movie of I would have been at the midnight showing for. I don’t even know if I’ll make it to see in theaters or not. I’m just kind of… blah about it.

Goon
Guest

More stuff:

Oscorp, biggest company in the world, doesnt check for ID, or go looking for Parker after someone else shows up claiming to be the intern? This scene is completely fucked, the other guy could have easily proven he was himself. The number of people that have to be dumb for this scenario to work out… dumber than Stormtroopers. And there’s no security cameras for the super secret areas either?

How did Peter get all that super string?

Spider-Man can sense Lizard from across town but at another time, not through a wall. He doesnt even notice when Conners is turning into the Lizard right in front of him. Moron.

How the hell do the police know about the tattoo on the thief’s wrist? nobody saw it!

Peter has some amazing cell phone reception underground, huh.

Nobody things its strnage that Peter suddenly becomes a mega-athlete after the football and basketball scenes? Flash doesn’t figure it out? There’s a superhero running around town, he’s basically outed himself with his behavior… and several people have seen him without a mask on and say “I’ll remember your face!” Nothing comes of it.

Peter Parker uses Bing. Not a plot hole, but 🙂

Peter Parker uses the same prescription glasses as his father?

Rick Vance
Guest

I think you are just nitpicking for the sake of it at this point.

Spider-Man is an inherently ridiculous concept as we went over constantly in the Prometheus discussions if you want to you can nitpick the stupid into ANY movie.

Goon
Guest

“I think you are just nitpicking for the sake of it at this point.”

I said as much when I started nitpicking. Scroll up.

If there was a true theme at the heart of this film, I’d be debating it instead. But I don’t see one. I just see bad writing, bad characters, and ugly filmmaking.

Goon
Guest

I can go back to angry character nitpicking:

If you’re girlfriends dad is having a funeral, and you’ve made some promise to leave her alone… an option is to tell her before the funeral so she’s not extra hurt/confused/wondering where you are, and can actually focus her grief where it belongs and look to someone else who actually can support her.

Especially when after she confronts you, you’re going to change your mind immediately about the promise you made.

Peter Parker again, is an asshole.

Rick Vance
Guest

I did not expect to enjoy that more than Avengers. I appreciate the lack of other superheroes because it allows this movie to focus, and building movies upon universe uniformity or continuity is not a way to create good movies.

Also I think tying the villain in any heavier with the origin would have been a mistake. Also I guess I don’t have a problem with the villain take a backseat when this movie is so much more about the Peter & Gwen and everything. I would have enjoyed if say Dr. Conners had a family but it isn’t required.

I also quite enjoyed the Lizard because they really weren’t shy with the fact that it was a movie that had a giant lizard in it, also the creative ways they had Peter use his web shooters was a lot more engaging to watch.

I hope they have the balls to pull off what they are setting up with the series, not sure if they are going to go for that story next film but I was not expecting Captain Stacey to bite it(should have, did once he went up) and he did so anything is possible.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

I think anyone who knows anything about Gwen Stacy expects Sony to take the story to it’s logical conclusion. At this point I think it would take more balls for them not to do it at least by the third film.

Goon
Guest

“they really weren’t shy with the fact that it was a movie that had a giant lizard in it,”

That police station sequence is laughable. Peter is explaining it like a dumbass, Stacy makes the Tokyo mayor joke twice. TWICE! Good job screenwriters. Peter is just plain dumb about the Lizard in general. First the Lizard is wandering the city like a confused man with Alzheimers, and he just disappears offscreen while Peter is saving the day… and Peter doesnt put two and two together, going back to the lab, asking obvious questions from the scientist studying lizards in the company that is genetically modifying animals that just gave him spider powers, that arent even suspicious or probing, while Conners has scales on his neck and is acting like a completely different person than he knows… Parker is also dumb enough to leave a “Property of Peter Parker” sticker on his camera which Lizard of course finds.

It reminded me of the Simpsons, where Bart is dumb enough to leave a “Property of Bart Simpson” sticker on his walkman when Timmy O’Toole is a hoax.

Garfield’s Peter Parker is a retarded asshole, period. He acts like James Franco’s character on Freaks & Geeks, this wannabe James Dean who shows up to dinner like a dick, can’t hold his tongue, but is immediately forgiven by a girl who should be too smart to put up with this behavior. The romance is thrust upon the film. These two actors have chemistry, but the mechanics around their romance is a joke.

Meanwhile Gwen Stacy is a high school student, but also an intern at the top scientific company in the world who can throw together an antidote to a formula they have been spending a decade concocting within hours. And people are saying this film is “more realistic”. This film’s scientists are dumber, shittier people than Prometheus’ scientists, and they’re the main characters we’re supposed to be sympathizing with. By the end of the movie, offscreen, Flash Thompson became a better and more likeable person than Peter Parker.

I’d rather see Spider-Ham than this reboot franchises sequel.

Goon
Guest

Oh… and at the end of the film, his “Promises you can’t keep ” line makes him even more of an asshole than he was at the beginning. He didnt even learn the token lesson he was supposed to learn. A middle finger to Ben and Captain Stacy.

Fuck you Peter Parker.

Jericho Slim
Guest

WTF are you talking about Goon? That exactly what happens. He goes to Connors office, sees his scales, and then tells Captain Stacy that Connor is the Lizard. Literally the next scene.

Goon
Guest

I mean, he had to go back to the lab, JS?

If his Spidey Sense can sense the Lizard across town, why did this need to happen? Why is it not going off like crazy?

Jericho Slim
Guest

Ummm, he’s not the Lizard, he’s Doc Connors at that moment. No threat.

Goon
Guest

he’s got friggin scales on his neck, and we’ve seen now he can change back and forth. we dont’ know that. there’s no established visual motif of what sets it off.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Yes there is a visual motif. Tail + two arms = the lizard.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

From Goon’s link to the Hulk review, is this story about the storylines that were cut from the Amazing Spider-Man:
http://badassdigest.com/2012/07/05/was-the-untold-story-cut-from-the-amazing-spider-man/
Did Marc Webb want to tell a very different origin story with the so-called “untold story” or were they just edits to make the movie flow better?

Now this movie had a lot more issues than could just be fixed in editing, but I still wonder if these cuts would have made it better? The flip side of course is that it could have been worst.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

To sum up my feelings about this movie in 2 words is: wasted potential. Lots of good actors, they did great with Gwen and unlike the Mamo Matt’s, I do think the Lizard could have been an interesting villain, he doesn’t have to be pure evil. However, everything seems slight off, where they come close but miss their mark.

One of the things, that I think was completely off was messing with the beats of the classic origin story without improving it. I have no problems with change as long as they do something better, not change for the sake of change. It’s a different situation when someone who Peter could have easily slowed down when being chased by a cop kills his uncle later on. Compared to some guy who robs a convenience store and was being chased by a store clerk who likely couldn’t have held the guy if he was stopped.

Also if there is any line that from Spider-Man is know it’s “With great power, comes great responsibility”. Having Uncle Ben go on about responsibility without saying this famous line, threw me out of the movie, as it got me thinking why it was off, did Martin Sheen ad lib his lines, were they in the script like this. It got me thinking about these things during the movie, really taking me out of it.

I know that they were trying to do all these bits with Peter’s parents, but I really think they fumbled the origin enough that they could have just started with him as Spider-Man.

SPOILERS for the end of the movie:

Also if anything felt incredibly deja-vu from the first Spider-Man was the funeral at the end of the movie, with Peter Parker trying to tell Gwen that he couldn’t be with her, like it was at the end of the original Spider-Man movie. Then the way he breaks his promise after all making such a big deal about it was really quite lame.

I really did like the first two Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies and would have liked to seen if the exces could back off and let him do what he wanted for an interesting 4th movie. Since I think in part of what made Spider-Man 3 suck so bad, was the execs getting involved and forcing Venom into the storyline.

With what they have set up with Gwen Stacey, it could make an interesting 2nd movie, but let’s hope they ditch Mark Webb. Also there’s 3 writers involved in this movie and I hope none of them return either.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

Guardians of the Galaxy were a bit of a known property back in the early 90’s when Jim Valentino wrote and drew the series. Jim Valentino then left Marvel to become one of the founders of Image Comics, writing & drawing ShadowHawk. After Jim Valentino left the series, it still stayed around for a few years but was eventually cancelled.

So yeah, while the characters originated in the late 60’s and early 70’s, but there was a pocket in the 1990’s where they were popular, but it was mainly the result of one person, rather than the characters themselves. I don’t think this group was ever popular beyond that.

Marvel’s reboot of the team in 2008 seems to be mainly with all new characters and one member of the original team. It seems to me (coming from someone who really doesn’t read any of the current Marvel comics) created so they could write some more sci-f/cosmic Marvel comics. However, the 2008 series was cancelled (or ended?) in 2010. Which is strange Marvel wants to push forward a movie that doesn’t seem to be able to stay in print.

Jandy Hardesty
Admin

I thought the character stuff was quite well-done, especially in terms of Peter and Gwen. I liked seeing the more smart-alecky Peter, since I just started reading Ultimate Spider-Man a few weeks ago and Garfield’s Peter seems much more like that Peter than Maguire did. (I’m also biased because I like Garfield in general much more than Maguire, but it’s also how the character was written.) Emma Stone is so much better than Kirsten Dunst it’s not even a comparison – no knock on Dunst in general, she’s great sometimes, but the Spider-Man series was not one of those times. I got a really great vibe from all of their interactions together, and frankly, I care more about that than the superhero stuff. This is true when I read comics, too – most of the time I could care less who the villain of the week is, I like seeing the good guys interact with each other more.

In this case, the film suffered A LOT from following the Raimi Spider-Man’s origin story too much. I thought it would diverge a bit more based on the trailers (the backstory with the dad, and stuff, which turned out to be largely superfluous), but even though I think a lot of it would’ve worked for me if I hadn’t seen the other film, it was a bit tough knowing so many of the upcoming beats before they happened. I’m not sure I want to be too hard on ASM for that, though – the same could be said of anything adapted from an existing story and using the same plot elements. They could’ve changed it up more here, though. That said, the pacing is still off for a lot of the action parts (the extended “hero” sequence as he’s swinging along the cranes looks great, but hello, he’s on a time crunch here, and there was no urgency in that part of the sequence), and I didn’t believe the villain’s motivations most of the time.

Still, like I said, the character stuff is more important to me than the villain stuff, so I still overall enjoyed the movie quite a bit.

Goon
Guest

“Emma Stone is so much better than Kirsten Dunst it’s not even a comparison”

They didn’t do enough with her to make comparisons actually relevant. She’s still almost entirely just a plot device. When people point to the better cast, I can only say “So what?” You have better actors, but you do nothing with them. Sally Field is not a better aunt May… because she doesn’t do anything. Better actress, easy, but worthless.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Wow, the Hulk’s review of the film is so laughably bad that it almost doesn’t deserve comment. I’m disappointed in you too, Goon. So, I’ll do my usual point-by-point BS that I’m sure everybody is tired of. Oh well, I guess I’m just a one trick pony.

1. Peter is a dick. Yes and No. Before he gets his powers, he tries to help a boy that is getting picked on by Flash, and then he gets the shit beat out of him. Real dick move, Pete.

But Hulk is right that this Peter is more dickish = it’s a different character. This is an adolescent that is angry because he remembers being abandoned by his parents, and has been lied to by his aunt and uncle the whole time. That’s the definition of a disturbed teen. So once he gets his powers, he shows up Flash, the guy who beat the shit out of him in front of the WHOLE SCHOOL. Shit, at that age I would have beat the shit out of Flash, instead of just showing him up.

Then he is the cause of his uncle dying, and the police can’t capture the criminal. He becomes spider-man, but not yet a hero – he just has a personal vendetta – just like Captain Stacy says. He’s only looking for the guy with the tattoo. And Pete says he’s doing a job the police can’t do – which is catching his uncle’s killer. So he’s a dick and a wise-ass. (By the way, he’s always been a wise-cracking dick in the comics – so this is totally in character.)

Once he faces the lizard on the bridge (and saves the child), he becomes a hero. From then on he acts like a hero. Even to the point of getting the eggs for Aunt May after the fight with the Lizard.

Oh, and choosing to be with and comfort the one you love and who loves and needs you is a dick move? You should honor a promise to a dead man over the needs of the living?

2. Hulk criticizes an adolescent for being juvenile. Come again?

3. Hulk talks about how similar the web-slinging is (no shit). That’s like saying Superman flying is similar.

4. Hulk makes a big deal about Aunt May not knowing who Peter is. Um, she figures it out like halfway through the movie when Peter leaves the room when an arrest warrant is issued for Spider-man.

5. Love story. In contrast to Sam Raimi’s series, the female lead is proactive and likes Peter. Mary Jane – on the other hand – only likes Peter/Spider-Man because she is a victim that is saved by the man in all three films. So a proactive woman who knows what she wants and saves Spider-man instead of being saved herself is a bad thing? Really? Okay. Right after his kiss with her, he goes after the Lizard. Did her love change him?

6. Hulk – and others – are questioning the Lizard’s motivation. Do you question the WolfMan’s motivation? How about Mr. Hyde? He takes the formula and it turns him into a monster and turns him insane. What other motivation do you need?

7. Hulk and other people are complaining that the story shouldn’t be rebooted because it is too similar, and then criticize it for not being similar enough to Raimi’s film. (Peter should be more nerdy, etc.etc.) That makes no sense.

8.The big difference in this film – and why I think a reboot was warranted – is that everyone of the main characters have more agency than in Raimi’s original. Peter is bitten because of bad decisions he makes, not because of a random spider-bite. Peter causes the birth of the Lizard because he tells Connor the formula. His aunt and uncle are not perfect characters, but have actively deceived him, not to mention how Peter’s parents mistreated and abandoned him.

The Spider-man powers is – for all intents and purposes – his only legacy from his dad, not just a random occurrence. His dad abandoned him and left him with this curse. That is a big change.

9. Identity is a big theme. As opposed to Raimi’s, every important character in Peter’s life (Aunt May, Gwen, her dad, the Lizard) knows that he is spider-man, including the kid he saves. In fact, taking off his mask in front of the kid is one of his first heroic acts. This reinforces the theme that Peter is just a regular person trying to do right.

10. The Lizard doesn’t have to save Peter, but he does. That shows his character arc.

Goon
Guest

I’m disappointed right back atcha

“Peter is a dick. Yes and No. Before he gets his powers, he tries to help a boy that is getting picked on by Flash, and then he gets the shit beat out of him. Real dick move, Pete.”

Selective. How about the dinner table with Captain Stacy then? Or the way he behaves with Flash and even the criminal? He goes way beyond what is necessary, for dickishness’ sake. He’s as dickish as Sam Witwicky, but I don’t see anyone lining up to excuse his behavior. I guess this means any asshole teenager in any movie from now on is excused because they are an adolescent? He’s supposed to be a hero, or at least become one. he starts off as a brooding hunk, and ends a brooding hunk in spandex. The only thing he supposedly learns is flushed away by his clear intention to break his promise. he’s a dick.

“the female lead is proactive and likes Peter. ”
She’s a smart woman.. who likes a dick who treats her father like a piece of shit for no good reason. She pulls away, he tells her to shut up, and they kiss, and they’re Gweter. There’s no arc to that story, they just like either other from the start to the end. She saves him in the most ridiculous way, quickly concocting an antidote to something it took years to create.

“Do you question the WolfMan’s motivation?”
This is a lazy “So what” excuse. The filmmaking can’t properly express that he can change back/forth, it first shows up as a surprise that he’s back in human form rather than the initial idea that he’s permanently transformed. it shows his internal monologue in the most cartoonish campy way, unintentionally. hsi change of heart comes out nowhere, there’s no logic to becoming a lizard makign you want to turn anyone else into a lizard. You’ve seen Doc Ock and the way his lost love and lost glory and his infected creation factor into things and then you’re satisfied with this? Bad thought, even worse execution.

“This reinforces the theme that Peter is just a regular person trying to do right.”
Except that when he discusses having to go after the lizard, its’ because he’s responsible, and not because it’s right

“Identity is a big theme.”
His reveals his identity to the kid so he can be trusted. the rest is just recklessness. There’s no visual reference that he’s trying to be caught/looking for help. Unlike other hero films, there is nothing about the villian, storyline macguffins or side characters that support the overall theme of identity. It’s only there inherent to being a superhero who has a mask. Compare this to Spider-Man 2 where Parker has to go to such extreme degrees to balance his life and keep secrets.

And again, at the end, he claims he’s going to break the promise, the promise which would keep Gwen safe as people seek his identity. So he’s essentially elected to still be reckless and irresponsible at the expense of others. Not a hero. His identity is that he’s a dick. Seriously, the ‘best promises are the ones you can’t keep’ line damns Parker and this entire film.

antho42
Guest

Peter is not a dick, he is just a normal, modern teenager.

Goon
Guest

In which case modern teenagers are dicks.

Jericho Slim
Guest

I just know if Goon beat my ass today, and I get superpowers tonight, I’m whoopin’ that ass tomorrow. Believe dat. 🙂

Clark Kent did it in Superman II.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Again, respectfully, I don’t see where you’re coming from Goon.

Peter respectfully argues with Captain Stacy (doesn’t raise his voice, says “MAYBE he’s just trying to do something the police can’t. . ), the person who has just called him a threat and a menace, then apologizes, and thanks him for the dinner. Believable.

He picks on the guy who has beat him up and stomped the shit out of him, but doesn’t hurt the guy at all. Believable.

The day/week after his uncle’s death – that Peter caused – he slams flash against the locker “not Today, flash” when he thinks he is going to tease him. Once Flash expresses his condolences, he lets him go. He’s angry about his uncle’s death. Believable.

An adolescent who was abandoned by his parents and feels betrayed broods. Believable.

He thinks the criminal killed his uncle – he treats him bad. Believable.

A teenager takes her boyfriend’s side over her father. Believable.

Gwen saves him first by attacking the Lizard in the hallway – bravery. You’re complaining about antidotes in a comic book movie? It’s no more ridiculous than the formula itself. Or no more ridiculous than say – a guy becoming a human spider.

The initial idea that he’s permanently transformed? Says who? The film shows him changing back and forth – it uses his shadow in the sewer. First he has a little patch on his neck when he becomes human. The next time, there are more patches on his face – its getting progressively worse. And he’s getting progressively crazier.

Remember the lizard mouse that was eating the other mouse? That’s what the formula does. I guess 28 days later is lazy because the Rage virus makes you rage.

His change of heart occurs when the antidote is released in the air, changing him back to Conner. Doc Ock just acts right because Peter pleads with him. What’s more believable?

If you’re responsible for creating a mess, isn’t it right to clean it up???

The arc to the love story is Peter refusing to see her after her father dies. And her being in love with someone her father hates is conflict.

Identity is everywhere in this movie. The teacher says at the end, “There is only one storyline – who am I.” You can’t get much more obvious than that. The whole reason for his vigilanteism is finding the identity of the peson who killed Uncle Ben. He puts on his father’s glasses, Ben says “you look just like your father” – identity. When Peter reveals his identity to Connor at Connor’s house, that’s when he invites him in. How about Peter’s use of fake identity to get into Oscorp? Even your friend Hulk acknowledges that identity is a major theme.

And yes teenagers are dicks, not just modern ones. Remember the arguments you had when you were a teenager with your parents? Have you ever read “Catcher in the Rye”?

And again, Peter doesn’t act like a dick after he fights the Lizard – all of the incidents are before that scene.

Jandy Hardesty
Admin

I have to agree with Jericho in pretty much everything. Peter’s behavior at the dinner table isn’t assholeish. He’s suggesting the police might not know everything about the Spider-man (which is true), and when he hears that there was more to the police’s plan than catching the car thief, he acknowledges, without revealing his identity, that he didn’t know as much as he should’ve about the situation. Sure, he continues to defend himself, but who wouldn’t? A man whose daughter he loves has just basically called him a criminal. Who wouldn’t get a little defensive? Maybe the conversation got a little heated, but that was as much on Captain Stacy as on Peter.

Peter’s a smart-aleck, but he’s no more dickish than any other adolescent, especially one who’s had childhood trauma. In fact, as Jericho just brought up Catcher in the Rye – Holden Caulfield is ENTIRELY more of a waste-of-space jerkwad than Peter.

I do think the Lizard’s motivation was a bit weak (your #6 above). Not completely, just that the leap from “I can take this and be super-strong and that’s awesome” to “I should infect everybody with this.” That’s the part that I didn’t totally buy. It seemed manufactured to create a city-wide threat and get them on top of the tower for the final battle (apparently a top-of-a-tower battle is some kind of superhero movie rule).

Jericho Slim
Guest

I agree with Matt Gamble that the biggest problem was the poor use of 3D – totally wasted. It actually looked better in 2D.

I also agree with Goon that the webbing Stacy’s ass and kissing her was a little over the top and sudden. Not the fact that they liked each other, but how quickly she accepted his identity.

Goon
Guest

boI don’t know how to keep arguing if I have to deal with both “no he’s not” and “so what, teenagers are dicks”. More later, maybe. But his dickishness made him detestable for me, right to the very end with his broken promise. Don’t like the lead, don’t like the look, and don’t like the action very simply = don’t like the movie. The mountain of script fuckups just accentuate my belief that Webb did a terrible job.

Jandy Hardesty
Admin

Webb didn’t write the script, though.

antho42
Guest

Goon (letterboxd is down):
Why does Peter have the same glasses prescription as his dad?
Geek Chic. A very popular trend among the youth in recent years

Why does Parker need the cranes? This isn’t an empty street and he can swing side to side like we’d just seen him for 40 minutes, right?
Osmond Tower is the tallest tower around the neighborhood. Thus he needs the crane to swing there is a quick fashion.

Why does Parker need Conners to save him? He can stick to the side of buildings!
He freaked out. Remember, this is practically his first week as superhero (i.e, Spiderman Begins)

If Peter’s been obsessed with his dad his whole life, how come his web research turned up all this stuff – so easily – now?
A lot of the research came from his dad’s man purse that he found in the basement.

Where did all these lizards come from?
Doctor Croc has Aquaman levels of animal communication

How does Parker have this cellphone reception that far underground?
NYC has an extensive, complex subway system. Thus there are lots of cell towers located underground.

Why does Parker bring a camera (not digital, btw) with his name on it when he’s actively looking for the Lizard? This directly leads to the attack on the school. His obvious carelessness could have gotten several people killed.

It is the same camera he uses for photo club. It is retro chic which is popular among the youth.

How come the various people who explicity have seen Parker’s face, or demonstrations of his powers don’t go to the police or ask questions? Why hasn’t May figured it out with him coming home scratched up every night?
NYC has 15 million people.
May probably has but is unwilling to fully confront him on the issue.
How do the police know about the tattoo on the guys’ wrist if nobody saw it?
I do not know
Where did all this super string come from?
Peter Parker mods a high product.

Why can Peter sense Lizard from across town with his Spider-sense, but not when he’s a wall away, or in the same room with scales growing on his face?
Same problem found in the comics.

How come nobody at Oscorp checks IDs of Parker or the real intern, or has proper security in their secret labs?
Osbourne only cared about finding the cure. He did not care about anything else.

What happened to Ratha? Last we see him he’s trapped in his car. Conners went to a lot of trouble to find him and then he’s gone. There’s production stills that suggest there were scenes of his capture abandoned.
We can infer that either he either got fucking scared and run away from the city or that the Lizard killed him when Spider-man was rescuing the kid.

Why is it okay that they abandoned the search for Ben’s Killer?
Why not? The city was in peril.

Why doesnt Peter tell Gwen about the promise BEFORE the funeral instead of after so she can come all mad, distracted, unfocused, hearthbroken.. if he’s going to explicitly states he’s going to break the promise he made to her dying father anyway?
It hard for Peter to confront Gwen face to face.

Goon
Guest

Some of these are actually satisfactory, and some of these sound like you’re taking the piss and know this is BS.

antho42
Guest

Pretty much. I am surprised you did not mentioned the lizard SWAT team.

Jericho Slim
Guest

In Spidey 2, Doc Ock is about to kill Harry unless he gives him that element. Harry says “Kill Spider-Man and I’ll give it to you.” At which point, anybody else would say, ” Umm no, give it to me now, or I’ll kill you.”

And why is Doc Ock trying to rebuild that machine? How clear is his “motivation”?

How did Peter Parker get into the broom closet without anyone seeing him?

I could make a list of 20 questions for any Spider-Man movie, or any Superhero movie, including the Dark Knight (somebody did this on letterboxd) or The Avengers or X-Men or Superman. It’s par for the course.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Thats why I like Spider-Man 3. That movie just says “fuck it”, and goes full-on crazy. I listened to Filmjunk’s Spider-Man 3 review, and even they were laughing as they ripped it to shreds. I laughed the whole time.

Goon
Guest

You forgot the better Spidey 2 mistake – that Doc Ock tosses a car at Parker and MJ when he needs them to live for information.

“And why is Doc Ock trying to rebuild that machine? How clear is his “motivation”?

Extremely clear. He believes the energy machine will work and will repair his reputation. it’s all about ego. He’s not trying to destroy the city or turn them into an evil league of Octo-Men. Doc Ock is among the best superhero movie villains. The Lizard just might be the very worst.

Goon
Guest

but I don’t think Maguire every did anything as dumb as leaving the name on his camera after he went out of his way to chase down a bad guy in the sewers.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Parker has done it a couple times in the comics. Really a driving theme for Parker is how overwhelmed he is, and how he continually tries to shoulder everything and because of this he frequently makes mistakes, often times incredibly stupid ones, that cause far more harm than good.

Goon
Guest

(aside, not a rebuttal)

Is “… in the comics” a proper rebuttal to anything? It seems like some people automatically prefer canon, just because.

The webshooters to me are dumb. Raimi’s version to me… better. I know the shooters are canon, but they work against the idea of him having spider powers and add movie/realism logic problems for me.

Likewise, the giant monster from Watchmen is worse than how the movie made it about Manhattan.

Any other opinions/sides about canon choices vs. film choices?

antho42
Guest

Faboys hate Raimi for going with organic webshooters. I shit you not. Even Jeff Cannata and the Ifanboy crew mentioned how happy they were that the film incorporated mechanical webshooters.

antho42
Guest

I like people fucking with cannon if the changes enrich the film experience.
Case in point, V for Vendatta is the best Alan Moore film adaptation because it is stand alone film.

PS- V for Vendetta film >>>>> V for Vendetta graphic novel.

Jericho Slim
Guest

most of the lord of the ring changes were necessary for the film medium.

Galactus not being a giant dude in FF:ROSS was good, even though what they came up with wasn’t the best.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Why wouldn’t “in the comics” be a proper rebuttal? When you make changes there is a wave effect along the line that effects the character, including his motivations, reactions and his psychological make-up, and movies rarely take the time to acknowledge, let alone account, for those changes and instead try to shoehorn the previous version of the character into the new version of the character. It leads to poorly written characters and often a disconnect with the audience.

One of the biggest knocks for making the web shooters organic is it diminishes Parker’s considerable intelligence. The guy is a truly brilliant and gifted scientific mind and that is totally lost in Raimi’s version. By taking away that intellect you make a huge change to the character and why he acts the way he does. And that’s on top of the obvious nitpick that if the web shooters were going to be organic then they should be coming out of the spinnerets located on his ass. Because without the spinnerets, spider’s can’t make webs. So no, the claim that Raimi’s version has less logic issues isn’t correct. In fact it just made a plot hole that is never resolved and diminished the make-up of the character at the same time. So when Peter makes dumb choices and makes mistakes it isn’t because he is overwhelmed and trying to do more than he should, its because he’s a dork and sort of stupid. That is a vastly different character and one that is never all that well accounted for in the trilogy, and really comes back to bite Raimi in the third film.

I don’t back canon simply because it is canon, if a film can come up with a better way to portray something and fully explain the character differences I have no problem with it, Prisoner of Azkaban is a prime example of changing canon and doing it ridiculously well, but the vast majority of film’s don’t do those changes well, so the result is people wishing they would have just stuck with canon as it was perfectly workable as it was. Take the Alan Moore example used, V for Vendetta isn’t the best Moore adaption because it is a stand-alone film or that it changed canon (I’d argue it changed canon the least amount of any Moore adaptation), it’s the best adaptation because it’s the only one that invests the time to come up with a good substitute for the changes that were made and thus is able to stand on its own merits and not on the back of its comic book predecessor.

Rick Vance
Guest

I think there has to be some solid core from the adapted work or else why are you calling it an adaptation. The spirit of the original must exist within the new thing, which I think ASM captures far better than the earlier 3 films.

(also why V For Vendetta doesn’t work, because it so totally misses the spirit of that comic.)

Goon
Guest

“Why wouldn’t “in the comics” be a proper rebuttal?”

Because some things don’t work on film. Unless we want Wolverine in yellow tights?

“One of the biggest knocks for making the web shooters organic is it diminishes Parker’s considerable intelligence. The guy is a truly brilliant and gifted scientific mind and that is totally lost in Raimi’s version.”

I believe Maguire’s Parker is the top of his class, because of the way he handles responsibility and how he carries himself. I don’t believe Garfield’s is a genius. He’s aloof and reckless. They can show him tinkering around all he wants, he still doesn’t carry himself like someone who ever knows what he’s doing. At least as Parker. Performance matters, and Maguire’s
Parker doesn’t need mechanical shooters. He is endlessly clever with his webs, the way he talks Doc Ock into the greater good at the end of Spider-Man 2, right about his calculations etc.

There’s other ways to make Peter look smart. A Spider-man without organic web shooters is less of a Spider-man and more like a Batman. It’s a toy. It’s lame. Fuck the canon.

Goon
Guest

Also: if he’s just making webs from scratch from know-how… the origin story just gets stupider. He gains spider strength and can climb on walls but… can’t spin webs? And then the signature element of his superhero persona isn’t actually a superpower? It works better than all his powers come from the same origin. Producing webs on his own se becomes a ridiculous affectation. Yes, his brain is a gift, but I find it more satisfying that he takes this curse of webs coming out of his body and finds a way to master this as a gift and use it for good. Great power. Great responsibility. more satisfying.

And again, yes we allow stretches on film, but with shooters he has to compact all this stuff onto his person, get it from Oscorp who should be able to track him down about this, yes? I know he runs out of organic webs, but I always accepted that as some weird equivalent of running out of jizz from wanking it too often 😛 Also, the old saying of easier to accept the impossible than the improbable. Spiderbite gives you webs? Easier to accept than poor high school student develops and tests genius mechanism within a few days. I know in the comics they made a lot of stuff around him raising the money to pay for webs.

Which again… is dumb. If he can develop this type of fluid/device in this “more realistic” vision he can license the technology to someone and be filthy rich immediately. A Parker with mechanical web shooters is not a poor student for long. Organic web Spidey is.

Side note: in the 90s cartoon Spider-man once stated that he got the ability to build cartridges from the spider bite. Now thats dumb.

antho42
Guest

In regards to the web-shooter, it is a trivial issue at best. What is so important about such as small detail? Goon, we are talking about the characteristics of superheros! Do not use the word “dumb”: it is a meaningless word in this context. It’s like people complaining of Superman not wearing a mask.

Goon
Guest

“dumb” is relative 😉

Matthew Fabb
Guest

antho42: “I like people fucking with cannon if the changes enrich the film experience.
Case in point, V for Vendatta is the best Alan Moore film adaptation because it is stand alone film.”
Huh? Aren’t most Alan Moore film adaptions stand alone films? I guess with the one exception being Chris Nolan’s The Dark Knight?

“PS- V for Vendetta film >>>>> V for Vendetta graphic novel.”
Personally, I think the V for Vendetta movie is a poor action movie with a few cool scenes. However, it can’t hold a candle to the original graphic novel.

Goon
Guest

Here’s an example:

The Kick-Ass movie is better than the comic. Specifically, the changes to Big Daddy and Hit-Girl. In the comic he’s extremely right wing fascist, asks her, “What’s the dictionary definition of a Democrat?” and she says, “A fucked up prick who will march for the right to murder babies, but hold a candlelight vigils for serial killers.” In the movie Big Daddy has a revenge story rather than starting out of boredom.

Does it change the characters? Yes. Do I give a fuck? No. I prefer the Vaughan versions of them because they’re more fun. Just because the comics were first doesn’t mean they’re better. You can fundamentally change some things and still be better.

Another example. “Hurt” by Trent Reznor. Cash’s version is better performed and more emotional, and changes “Crown of shit” to “Crown of thorns” – completely different imagery, changes the texture of the song to suit Cash’s ideals. Johnny Cash would not sing “Crown of shit”, and not just for the use of that word.

Midnight in the Garden of Good and is an okay movie and a better book. But the movie wouldn’t have been made better by including all the extra trials rather than consolodating them into one, just because the book did it. The spirit of the book is still on screen.

antho42
Guest

Except for some exceptions, i.e., Nolan’s Batman, superhero films should strive for the spectacular/fantastical over realism.

Rick Vance
Guest

Nolan’s Batman films are spectacular and fantastical they just don’t flaunt it out in the open it is disguised behind illusion and trickery.

antho42
Guest

They are not realistic, but they are grounded in reality.

For many stretches of Nolan’s films, I does not feel like a superhero film.

Goon
Guest

It’s easier when there’s no actual powers or magic and it’s all toys for both heroes and villains.

But some stuff does stick out of course, especially when its this modern age… like how nobody in the press knows how to follow a giant tank driving through the city. Are news helicopters extinct?

Matt Gamble
Guest

I can’t wait for you to lose your shit over Anna Karenina and The Great Gatsby being slaves to their source material this winter.

Oh wait…

Matt Gamble
Guest

And for the opposite:

How about Wanted, which drastically changes the origins of the characters and adds a Loom of fate. But hey, it isn’t the source material so it must be better.

I can come up with a host of terrible covers. Michael Bolton’s “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay”, Avril Lavigne’s Chop Suey, Hillary Duff’s My Generation and so on and so forth.

And for books you could go with I, Robot, The The Scarlett Letter or The Handmaid’s Tale. All films that made changes from the book for the film, all for the worse.

And I can keep going on. Just listing off some titles doesn’t make your opinion right, nor does it make your argument anything less than a straw man.

Goon
Guest

“How about Wanted, which drastically changes the origins of the characters and adds a Loom of fate. But hey, it isn’t the source material so it must be better.”

When I think of Wanted, and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I think of bad filmmaking rather than the adaptation. But whatever.

You’re putting words in my mouth though, when all I’m saying is that some adaptations improve the original material, or are necessary for film/modern world updates, and that you can’t say “…but in the comics” as an automatic win. If you’re saying “…in the comics”, you have to also be providing a reason why it’s better for the character/story. Simply being first does not inherently make things better.

Matt Gamble
Guest

And you’re putting words in my mouth by claiming I am stating that by being first it is better. I’ve stated numerous times I don’t believe that, and in fact I’ve yet to see anyone here make that claim. Yet you keep arguing that point. Its a straw man argument.

On top of that, I keep providing examples of how canon or the original work could be better than the adaptation and rather than actually discuss that you fly rack back into a lather and circle back to your original point.

Granted, I know you’re worked up and I totally can appreciate that, but fuck man, get a grip, everybody’s looking.

Goon
Guest

Where did I do that, or single you out, exactly? I wrote:
“(aside, not a rebuttal)

Is “… in the comics” a proper rebuttal to anything? It seems like some people automatically prefer canon, just because.”

and have only been rebutting specific claims and making a general case for messing with the canon since. Oh wait..
“and that you can’t say “…but in the comics” as an automatic win. If you’re saying “…in the comics”, you have to also be providing a reason why it’s better for the character/story.”

Replace “you” with “one”. Chilled out. Not singling you out.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I’m calmer than you are. 😉

antho42
Guest

What I meant by “stand alone” is that it strives to be a film, first and foremost. In other words, not a slave to the source material.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I’d argue none of the Moore adaptations have been slave’s to the source material. From Hell, Watchmen, V for Vendetta and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen all had huge changes, some due to switching mediums (Watchmen losing the 9 panel grid style iambic pentameter flow of the story), some because they wanted to change the scope and dynamic (V for Vendetta) and some because they seemed to be drunk and on a dare (From Hell and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen). All of them have some serious issues, and I don’t think you could consider any of the films to be an unqualified success, let alone masterpieces like some of their comic versions are.

Robert Reineke
Guest

Constantine belongs on the Moore list too, again with many change, although they were pulling from a Garth Ennis story for that one.

Rick Vance
Guest

I guess kinda, but Moore never did write for Hellblazer once that started.

Rick Vance
Guest

Are you implying that Dark Knight is primarily Killing Joke? Because that is far from what that film is.

antho42
Guest

They are not realistic, but they are grounded in reality.

antho42
Guest

I am of the camp that hates Frank Miller’s Batman legacy and prefers a more campy or a more surreal take on Batman. I want an abstract/absurd Batman over the fascist/ninja Batman.

Do not get me wrong, I still adore the Nolan’s film, which is why I am attending a midnight screening of Rises.

Jonathan
Admin

You prefer Burton’s movie version then? I appreciate the zaniness of it and love it for being the Batman that I grew up with (that and Batman: The Animated Series from ’92-’95), but rewatching it now after watching Nolan’s version, I find myself not being able to enjoy it the way I used to, not even Nicholson’s Joker. I’ve been spoiled.

antho42
Guest

Burton’s film have a lot of problems, moreso than the Nolan films. But in terms of visuals and score, it destroys Nolan’s films. They look and sound fucking amazing.

Batman Returns is highly underrated film, tbf.

Rick Vance
Guest

We are just gonna disagree then because personally Miller is responsible for the 3 greatest stories with the character.

Also there is a lot of abstract and theatrical stuff in his Batman that people tend to forget about in favor of the other stuff.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Speaking of Batman GN, is The Long Halloween worth a poke? I read it so long ago I’ve completely forgotten it.

Loeb is hit and miss for me although I’ve never seen any of his TV stuff.

Rick Vance
Guest

No it isn’t, there is an epilogue which completely breaks the core mystery of the book over it’s knee. Which then leaves the comic as a guest star ridden thing about nothing.

Jericho Slim
Guest

I’ll try it – order it with Batman: Earth One on Amazon. I get the comic book / graphic novel bug like once every 5 years. This is the fifth year.

Jandy Hardesty
Admin

Coincidentally enough, I just got The Long Halloween from a friend for pretty cheap (along with a bunch of other, non-Batman trades). It’s much larger than I anticipated. Compared with the trades I’m used to seeing now, it’s ginormous! Kind of daunting, but I’m looking forward to checking it out.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Just finished the Long Halloween. It was ok, definitely not great. Rick, I see what you mean about the epilogue.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Any recommendations for Batman GN/TPBs? (besides Miller and the Killing Joke)

I was thinking about Morrison’s run next or maybe some ra’s al ghul.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

The movie is quite a different story (Joker is driving Harvey Dent crazy not Gordon and actually succeeds), but still borrows enough from it that I can’t imagine Chris Nolan existing without there being a Killing Joke.

That said, the bit where Joker has Harvey Dent and Rachel in 2 different locations with bombs, is a very direct lift from a previous Batman story (but without it being Harvey Dent becoming Two-Face). I thought it was from the Killing Joke when I saw the movie, but then realized afterwards that it wasn’t. However, I can’t find what Batman story that comes from. Anyone know?

Rick Vance
Guest

Yeah I think Nolan just pulls from whatever he finds cool about the character and meshes it together to create something new.

Oldman’s Gordon is straight from Year One and I have even seen stuff in the latest Rises trailers that comes out of Year 100 by Paul Pope, Nolan’s movies are kaleidoscopic of Batman history much the same way Morrison’s run has been(but not to that extent)

Kurt
Guest

Having not read the graphic novel, my issue with V-For-Vendetta -The Film- is that it is a garish and ugly to the point of overriding some pretty great performances. I do not remember the script being all that great though.

Jonathan
Admin

I’d like to watch V for Vendetta again. I haven’t seen it since the theater. I remember it having some really sleek moments and enjoying it, mostly at least, but I certainly wasn’t blown away.

antho42
Guest

The graphic novel is awful. An intellectual story for 13 years old. The film is not great, but it at least knows at what level it is operating on.

Rick Vance
Guest

You are objectively wrong and need to take another look at it.

Cody Lang
Guest

Hmm. Yeah I’ve heard bad things about the V for Vendetta graphic novel. I’ve only read The Watchmen, The Killing Joke, and Top Ten (which was not good) and I’d like to check out From Hell when I have time. The Watchmen Graphic novel was so amazing that I find it impossible to connect it the movie. Alan Moore took his name off the credits for good reason I think.

Rick Vance
Guest

Top 10 proper, 12 issues? Because that book is easily my favorite Alan Moore comic and Gene Ha & Zander Cannon absolutely kill the art on it.

Cody Lang
Guest

I can’t stand it. I hate the dialog and the story was very uninteresting. I like the universe he create but it’s not my favorite Moore book. I heard that the prequel to it is better but I’m not motivated to check it out.

Cody Lang
Guest

I agree with you about the art work. I thought it was great.

Matt Gamble
Guest

His run on Swamp Thing is fucking amazing. Turned a C-grade schlock character into a terrifying existential horror story. They re-issued his run not that long ago and I’d highly recommend it.

And while Moore isn’t my favorite comic book writer, the guy is unquestionably talented as anyone who’s ever written in the medium. I’d be hard pressed to name a book of his that isn’t at least worth a read, with much of his work being essential if you are even a slight fan of reading.

Cody Lang
Guest

I think I’m more inclined to read his original runs like From Hell or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen than Swamp Thing but I’ve heard good things about. I was seriously blown away by The Watchmen and ever since I’ve been having a hard time to enjoy a comic. I picked up Grant Morrison’s Marvel Boy. I was anticipating it quite a bit because I enjoyed the character in the Dark Avengers story but it did not interest me once I started reading.

Matt Gamble
Guest

League is fun fluff and certainly porn for literature buffs, and From Hell is scary good, but I tell ya, Swamp Thing is his masterpiece.

He turned a lump of dried vomit into a diamond.

With his words.

Cody Lang
Guest

Hmm okay I’ll check it out after From Hell. But, if you’re wrong there will be no consequences. I love comics.

Rick Vance
Guest

You can basically read anything with his name on it and you are in for a better than average time.

And LoEG is much more than fluff, especially over everything that is out, it has some of the best character work out there and Kevin O’Neill murders it. The back matter specifically does sometimes devolve into spot the literary reference or Miyazaki film reference but whatever.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

From Hell, I think stand up as one of Alan Moore’s best works. There’s a back-up story in the collection called “The Dance of the Gull Catchers ” where he points out that who exactly Jack The Ripper was and which of the many theories that he is supporting doesn’t really matter. He’s just using that famous story as a canvas for his various themes.

Matthew Fabb
Guest

Alan Moore admits there are a number of things that were completely off that he chalks up to being quite young at the time (like people surviving a nuclear winter). However, if you can get beyond the initial set up, I think it’s really quite an incredible graphic novel.

JB
Guest

This is crazed horseshit philosophizing, nothing more. You can’t draw a line in the dirt and say “closer to canon is better” / “NOT closer to canon is better”. And you CERTAINLY can’t do it if you don’t know how to spell the word canon. That’s right: if you’re spelling it like the gun, shoot yourself the fuck outta here.

Let’s move from philosophizing to philandering. The reason Amazing Spidey works is because everyone in the movie is just so fuckable. Spidey: fuckable. Emma Stone: HELLA FUCKABLE. The Lizard: I will not deny that the lizard is fuckable. Even the new York skyline is fuckable in this movie. That first big shot of it, the one that’s in the trailer, is so Moist and Available that I had a dream about it last night. I was swinging through it on Toby Maguire’s jizz-ropes, going faster and faster, till BOOM I was sitting on a rooftop out of breath, and the Venom from the comics was sitting nearby, feasting on Peter Parker’s carcass like a cat would feast on a mouse. DELICIOUS.

Goon
Guest

I don’t deny that they sexed up Parker. If you think that makes it work, then I can’t argue that. For me it works against the character.

The Lizard and the look of the movie itself is not fuckable. Put a bag over this thing’s head, it’s ugly as fuck.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I’d argue that Parker is supposed to be ridiculously fuckable. He’s smart, funny and consistently puts the needs of others before his own. Women tend to dig that sort of stuff.

Goon
Guest

So he’s an outsider loser who is also a chick magnet.

This sounds like the focus group for Poochie the Dog.

Matt Gamble
Guest

It’s called an arc. You need to start somewhere to get somewhere.

Goon
Guest

How? What arc? He gets the girl immediately, never loses the girl except by his own choice which he changes his mind about in the next scene?

Matt Gamble
Guest

Arc’s can go across multiple movies. Granted I know most people like short -form storytelling for movies but it certainly isn’t a hard and fast rule, nor does it usually make much sense for a trilogy.

antho42
Guest

“Arc’s can go across multiple movies. Granted I know most people like short -form storytelling for movies but it certainly isn’t a hard and fast rule, nor does it usually make much sense for a trilogy.”
Matt Gamble, if you actually believe this, fuck off! The death of narrative cinema.

Jericho Slim
Guest

Yeah, fuck star wars and lord of the rings! 🙂

Matt Gamble
Guest

Movies can only tell stories in one way. Got it.

antho42
Guest

LOTR and Star Wars were mostly planned. A New Hope works as a stand alone film. LOTR were all filmed at the same time.

I liked the Amazing Spider-man, but, come on, the arc argument is complete bullshit. There is a lot evidence that suggest that “untold story” was simply cut out of the film because it was awful. Yes, Sony wants to continue the franchise, but there is no master-plan regarding the narrative.

antho40plus2
Guest

LOTR and Star Wars were mostly planned. A New Hope works as a stand alone film. LOTR were all filmed at the same time.

I liked the Amazing Spider-man, but, come on, the arc argument is complete bullshit. There is a lot evidence that suggest that “untold story” was simply cut out of the film because it was awful. Yes, Sony wants to continue the franchise, but there is no master-plan regarding the narrative.

Jericho Slim
Guest

It’s all good. I was joking.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I think it is a bit difficult to claim their is absolutely no arc for a trilogy of films that haven’t even been made yet.

I’m all for hyperbolic vitriol and bullshitting, but maybe wait for the movie to be made first?

antho40plus2
Guest

I’m all for hyperbolic vitriol and bullshitting, but maybe wait for the movie to be made first?
That is one way to examine the situation.
Another way to examine the situation is to simply examine all that is publicly available to examine, which the film itself.

antho40plus2
Guest

Matt Gamble, you are promoting TV writing. TV and films are two completely different mediums.

antho40plus2
Guest

Why I am arguing against a film that I enjoyed — perhaps eve more than Matt Gamble?

Matt Gamble
Guest

Writing is writing, and you can do a long-form narrative in film and it can be done in any genre.

I’m not sure why you’d be arguing against trying all sorts of narrative structures in film. Taking risks and expanding boundaries is a good thing even if the film might fall flat on its face while doing it.

Rick Vance
Guest

There are arcs abound from Begins to Dark Knight and probably into Rises does that make those TV writing?

When you have a plan (which ASM clearly does from its final scene) I don’t see a problem with shunting certain elements to where they work better in favor of making this movie work better.

antho42
Guest

On a more serious, important note:
Blonde Ema Stone >>>> Ginger Ema Stone

Personally, I am more of a brunette/dark hair person.In this case, however, the blondeness and the 1960’s style hairstyle perfectly match her striking eyes (good use of eyeliner). She practically has a factory girl look.

Goon
Guest

I believe blonde is her natural hair color.

antho42
Guest

In terms of the fashion sense of Peter Parker — a point of contention with Jay Cheel — he has a very modern look to him. Maybe it leans too much to the hipster side of contemporary fashion (i.e., Geek Chic).

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it becomes apparent that while Peter Parker is nerd/geek, he is a cool one. This is a problem, because his hip fashion sense and his good looks is undermining the character. Why the fuck is he a loner? He should be one of the coolest students in his high school. He looks like an Urban Outfitters male model.

Matt Gamble
Guest

He clearly has social issues, and he isn’t good with decorum or general boundaries. It seems more like a self-imposed exile that has in turn led to be shunned and bullied.

Same kind of thing happens in a lot of teen movies. With guys they make them social outcasts and with girl’s they make them fugly by putting glasses on them. It’s a trope, and it is hardly unique to this film.

antho42
Guest

I am looking forward to MAMO’s take on the World War Z fiasco.

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