As we near the end of not only 2009, but also the decade of “The Naughts”, we movie buffs turn our attention to lists. Glorious lists. Top 10s, Top 50s, Best ofs, Worst ofs and all the rest. Along with the lists though, come the anti-list brigades. The onslaught of comments about how useless lists are, how they always represent the same small crop of movies and how they don’t represent the complainer’s personal tastes (which leads one to wonder if the list did match their tastes, would they still complain?). Some people just really hate lists.
This was never more apparent than when the Online Film Community Top 100 films of all time was published a few years ago. The thought was an interesting one – gather numerous bloggers and online film buffs and have them put together their “canon” of top films to see how it compares to the same old same old lists that always have “Citizen Kane”, “Casablanca” and “Vertigo”. Nothing wrong with those films of course, but there was the idea that the online community might come up with something different…What hidden gems might the community rally around? How might this newer generation of film critics (mostly non-professional of course) expand the canon of great films? As it turned out, neither of those questions had hugely satisfactory answers – the resulting list was different in many ways than existing canon lists (pulling in more action/sci-fi/genre titles as well as recent features), but it didn’t really unearth any surprises since many of the individual “different” films selected were sifted out when the data was rolled up. Which is fair enough and should be expected since any list that pulls together more than, say, 10 people’s individual lists will weed out the stuff that is “different”. That’s just the nature of the task (and to be fair to the fine gentlemen who initiated the project, wasn’t really their intent anyway). The list, however, generated discussion – and movie geeks love discussion…
So Iain Stott thought he would try to generate some more discussion with a new list and to do it in a novel way. His idea was to come up with a secondary “canon” of films – something Beyond The Canon. He thought that some of the most interesting parts of these consolidated lists were the dark corners of the individual taste which contained those movies that the listmakers loved and thought deserved wider recognition, but never made the final cut because they wouldn’t receive enough votes. He wondered what would happen if we lopped off that top heavy section of “standard” favourites and found what lurked just below. Were there any commonalities in these bubbling under films? Was there a list that could serve to extend the canon? Iain’s approach was slightly different: he started by blacklisting any typical “canon fodder” from anyone’s list of 100 choices (by combining several sources of top films, he devised a list of films that contributors could not pick). The idea was that it would force the submitters to go deeper into their reserves of favourites and pick out some titles they thought might not get the recognition they so richly deserved. The final list would rank the films that were selected the most often (from unranked submissions).
So, how did it turn out? Pretty good if you ask me…The list is not an amalgam of rare and surprising choices – in fact, there’s some very popular and straightforward titles on it. But what other list will have a Top 25 consisting of Polanski’s The Tenant, Preminger’s Laura and Welles’ F For Fake? Or Eric Rohmer’s The Green Ray at number 33 (aka “Summer”), Wim Wenders’ Alice In The Cities at 47 and Jacques Rivette’s La Belle Noiseuse at 87 (3 films I have not seen, but am now eager to search out). In addition to the 100 most popular, Iain has also created a weighted list of films called Further Beyond The Canon – a list of some of those films that really aren’t that well known, but still received more than just a smattering of votes.
So have at it. Explore the site and the individual contributors lists and the list of films that got 4 or more votes and even this guy’s negative feedback about the whole idea (I agree with his thought that people should extend their comfort zones when watching film, but I love lists far too much to agree with him beyond that). I’ll admit my bias here – I was one of the contributors to the list. And I’d do it again.
Note: Top and bottom images (“Eyes Wide Shut” and “Mulholland Drive”) finished 1-2 on the list. Middle two images from “The Tenant” and “La Belle Noiseuse”.
Wow, it would be a fascinating idea to do this backwards – have people submit faves and then don’t include anything that got more than ‘x’ votes. Hmmm….
And yay to more lists
Me like lists!
I’ve seen this done with albums a few times before and it’s a great idea. I’ve still heard of most of the films on there of course, but some entries are very interesting. I’m surprised by some of the Hitchcock placings (Marnie higher than 39 Steps!?) but in a good way. Good to see Spinal Tap nice and high since it’s one of my favourites, but I’d argue that it’s already in plenty of Top 100 lists.
And I’m siding with Shannon, I love lists too, keep ‘em coming!
Dang it, Bob, I don’t have any more room in my Netflix queue to be finding new lists of films! Though I’ve seen most of the ones on the Beyond the Canon list. I’m a bit embarrassed to say that Further Beyond the Canon seems to be mostly films beyond my knowledge! (Which is awesome, actually.)
It’s a really good idea – Beyond the Canon is basically full of films that every film buff knows are good but end up getting shunted out of the consensus top 100 lists in favor of the Citizen Kanes and Godfathers of the world. It’s probably a good list to give to people who are more than a little interested in film (and thus know the standard canon to a fair degree) but haven’t explored beyond that yet.
Wow, yeah, I just checked out Further Beyond the Canon and I’ve only heard of a handful of them and (whisper it) I’ve not seen any of them!
Eureka Masters of Cinema and have released a few that I recognise on there so I’d better get shopping
That further Beyond The Canon list is very intriguing, I’ve not heard of most of them either. The few I’ve seen (Peter Watkin’s Edvard Munch, Tsai-Ming Liang’s Good-Bye Dragon Inn, Guy Maddin’s Cowards Bend the Knee, and Charles Burnett’s Killer of Sheep and Fantômas are all masterpieces though. So this is a very compelling list to follow.
Further Beyond the Canon
1. La Femme Qui Pleure (1979) .. Jacques Doillon
2. Evolution of a Filipino Family (2004) .. Lav Diaz
3. Du Côté d’Orouët (1973) .. Jacques Rozier
4. The Messiah (1975) .. Roberto Rossellini
5. Wife! Be Like a Rose! (1935) .. Naruse Mikio
6. The Masseurs and a Woman (1938) .. Shimizu Hiroshi
7. Le Tempestaire (1947) .. Jean Epstein
8. Sink or Swim (1990) .. Su Friedrich
9. Anatahan (1953) .. Josef von Sternberg
10. The Mouth Agape (1974) .. Maurice Pialat
11. Histoire(s) du Cinema (1989-1998) .. Jean-Luc Godard
12. Out 1 (1971) .. Jacques Rivette
13. M/Other (1999) .. Suwa Nobuhiro
14. Duelle (1976) .. Jacques Rivette
15. Colossal Youth (2006) .. Pedro Costa
16. Boy (1969) .. Oshima Nagisa
17. The Cloud-Capped Star (1960) .. Ritwik Ghatak
18. India Song (1975) .. Marguerite Duras
19. Humanity and Paper Balloons (1937) .. Yamanaka Sadao
20. Touki Bouki (1973) .. Djibril Diop Mambéty
21. The Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach (1968) .. Danièle Huillet & Jean-Marie Straub
22. La Prise de Pouvoir par Louis XIV (1966) .. Roberto Rossellini
23. Make Way for Tomorrow (1937) .. Leo McCarey
24. Lonesome (1928) .. Fejôs Pál
25. The Intruder (2004) .. Claire Denis
26. Ménilmontant (1926) .. Dimitri Kirsanoff
27. The Cheat (1936) .. Sacha Guitry
28. Liebelei (1933) .. Max Ophüls
29. Edvard Munch (1974) .. Peter Watkins
30. Begone Dull Care (1949) .. Evelyn Lambart & Norman McLaren
31. When a Woman Ascends the Stairs (1960) .. Naruse Mikio
32. Street of Shame (1956) .. Mizoguchi Kenji
33. Jazz on a Summer’s Day (1960) .. Aram Avakian & Bert Stern
34. Fantômas (1913/14) .. Louis Feuillade
35. The Rocking Horse Winner (1949) .. Anthony Pelissier
36. Grass: A Nation’s Battle for Life (1925) .. Merian C. Cooper & Ernest B. Schoedsack
37. The Reckless Moment (1949) .. Max Ophüls
38. Je t’aime, je t’aime (1968) .. Alain Resnais
39. Chelsea Girls (1966) .. Andy Warhol & Paul Morrissey
40. Distant Voices, Still Lives (1988) .. Terence Davies
41. Les Bonnes Femmes (1960) .. Claude Chabrol
42. Le Plaisir (1952) .. Max Ophüls
43. El Sur (1983) .. Victor Erice
44. Stars in My Crown (1950) .. Jacques Tourneur
45. Angel (1937) .. Ernst Lubitsch
46. Xala (1975) .. Ousmane Sembene
47. There Was a Father (1942) .. Ozu Yasujiro
48. The Time to Live and the Time to Die (1985) .. Hou Hsiao-hsien
49. A Time to Love and a Time to Die (1958) .. Douglas Sirk
50. Floating Clouds (1955) .. Naruse Mikio
51. The Devil, Probably (1977) .. Robert Bresson
52. The House is Black (1963) .. Forugh Farrokhzad
53. La Femme du Boulanger (1938) .. Marcel Pagnol
54. The Quince Tree Sun (1992) .. Víctor Erice
55. Louisiana Story (1948) .. Robert J. Flaherty
56. The Criminal Life of Archibaldo de la Cruz (1955) .. Luis Buñuel
57. Bitter Victory (1957) .. Nicholas Ray
58. Van Gogh (1991) .. Maurice Pialat
59. Barren Lives (1963) .. Nelson Pereira dos Santos
60. And Life Goes On… (1991) .. Abbas Kiarostami
61. Wanda (1970) .. Barbara Loden
62. The Green Ray (1986) .. Eric Rohmer
63. 7th Heaven (1927) .. Frank Borzage
64. City Girl (1930) .. F.W. Murnau
65. To Our Loves (1983) .. Maurice Pialat
66. Man of Aran (1934) .. Robert Flaherty
67. The Fall of the House of Usher (1928) .. Jean Epstein
68. Lancelot of the Lake (1974) .. Robert Bresson
69. Daisy Kenyon (1947) .. Otto Preminger
70. Run of the Arrow (1957) .. Samuel Fuller
71. The L-Shaped Room (1962) .. Bryan Forbes
72. An Autumn Afternoon (1962) .. Ozu Yasujiro
73. The Red and the White (1967) .. Jancsó Miklós
74. The Docks of New York (1928) .. Josef von Sternberg
75. Michael (1924) .. Carl Theodor Dreyer
76. Ride Lonesome (1959) .. Budd Boetticher
77. Land of Silence and Darkness (1971) .. Werner Herzog
78. Pyaasa (1957) .. Guru Dutt
79. Day of the Outlaw (1959) .. André De Toth
80. Mothlight (1963) .. Stan Brakhage
81. The Crime of Monsieur Lange (1936) .. Jean Renoir
82. Alice in the Cities (1974) .. Wim Wenders
83. The Pumpkin Eater (1964) .. Jack Clayton
84. Cowards Bend the Knee (2003) .. Guy Maddin
85. Husbands (1970) .. John Cassavetes
86. Deep End (1971) .. Jerzy Skolimowski
87. A City of Sadness (1989) .. Hou Hsiao-hsien
88. Vive l’Amour (1994) .. Tsai Ming-liang
89. Casque d’Or (1952) .. Jacques Becker
90. Le Bonheur (1965) .. Agnès Varda
91. Killer of Sheep (1977) .. Charles Burnett
92. The Marquise of O (1976) .. Eric Rohmer
93. Chikamatsu Monogatari (1954) .. Mizoguchi Kenji
94. La Chienne (1931) .. Jean Renoir
95. Il Posto (1961) .. Ermanno Olmi
96. Effi Briest (1974) .. Rainer Werner Fassbinder
97. Un Chant d’Amour (1950) .. Jean Genet
98. Platform (2000) .. Jia Zhangke
99. Goodbye, Dragon Inn (2003) .. Tsai Ming-liang
100. The Face of Another (1966) .. Teshigahara Hiroshi
Lists! Lists! I have to say, I can’t keep up with the additions to my master list of things to see. I sometimes think it would be easier to just dump IMDB to a spreadsheet and take out the things I don’t want to see – things like “Salo” (I just don’t think I can handle it), Paris Hilton vehicles (“The Hottie And The Nottie” – that’s a big NOT) and the remaining part of Michael Bay’s oeuvre.
David, if you happen to have any links to those lists of albums, I’d love to see them. I just got a region free DVD player, so those Eureka discs are now available to me – “Assassination” and “Judex/Nuits Rouge” are the two that are currently catching my eye.
Jandy, I agree with your point about the Beyond list being a good place for people who are just becoming a bit more interested in film. It’s that extension past the general canon that usually makes us dive headlong into film. It’s true that the list does contain some films that are well known and make other top 100 lists, but Iain did a really fine job in limiting choices – I was surprised at how many of my favourites were disqualified.
That Further list is pretty interesting, eh? I’ve seen about 10 of them and there are only two of those I didn’t really care for: “Louisiana Story” and “Goodbye Dragon Inn” (which I feel I should rewatch, but just can’t convince myself to do). “Mothlight” is an extraordinary 4 minute experimental film by Brahkage using insect parts and other items. “Casque D’Or” (one of my own submissions) and “The Face Of Another” are both remarkable.
Il Posto is brilliant, highly recommend it, gets to the heart of the modern workplace malaise + coming of age comedy.
The beyond the Canon Herzog ought to have been Stroszek
Beyond the Canon Bergman ought to be Autumn Sonata.
There appears to be a pretty substantial bias against films of this decade in the list.
Weird. We just watched “Eyes Wide Shut” last night.
I’d like to try and redo the OFC top 100 with more clear cut “Rules” this time. I think everyone had a different set of criteria when putting together their lists.
Maybe redo it and ask for top 100 FAVORITE films. e.g. It is Friday night and you want to watch an old favorite. Are you going to pop in Citizen Kane or Hard Candy? M or Interview with the Vampire? I think that the list with those criteria would alter itself significantly and would be much more interesting. The OFC as it stands is nice, but I am disappointed with the top 5.
Go for it, Andrew
Mike, I’m not sure I see the bias against the last decade…There’s 4 films from the last decade in the Top 20 and 7 in the Top 100. Considering that from the last 10 years there are far more films available from far more varied sources, it’s a wonder that there’s enough overlap in some of those films to make that Top 100 at all.
Love “Stroszek” and it did actually get 9 votes – so it barely missed the Top 100. Probably didn’t make the Further list because of the weighting that favours more obscure films.
For Bergman, I like “Smiles Of A Summer Night”. Voted for it even.
How is Autumn Sonata beyond the canon? It’s one of his best and most high-profile films.
In the end Andrew will just make a list with the stipulation that if you do not put Star Wars at no. 1 you’re lying and your list will not be counted.
From the Introduction section of the Beyond The Canon main page:
“I selected the titles for the canon – the list of ineligible classics – as arbitrarily as possible, so as to avoid any undue worry and guilt, which would surely have accompanied any such undertaking, had I attempted anything approaching definitiveness. Instead, I based the list on a quickly taken consensus between the top 300 films on They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They?’s top 1000, The One-Line Review Presents “1000 Films from the First Century of Cinema that Every Self-Respecting Film-Buff Should See at Least Once”, and the results of The One-Line Review Presents “The 50 Greatest Films,”"
That should pretty much answer your question right there Henrik.
Well, actually no, since Autumn Sonata is not on the list, and rot suggested it should be, for reasons still unknown!
Nevermind though, not a big deal.
Bob here are links to two of the album lists I mentioned:
The Wire’s ’100 (130) Records That Set The World On Fire (while no one was listening)’ – this one is pretty obscure, it’s a mix of singles and albums I think: http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/thewire.html#onfire
This is the Guardian’s ‘Alternative Top 100′, which to be honest isn’t that obscure (kinda like the beyond the Canon one), but at least it’s different from the usual bunch: http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/guardian100.htm#Alternative%20top%20100%20albums%20ever
The website I found them on is great though, it’s literally just a bunch of music lists. Enjoy!
Ah, I see…Sorry Henrik, I misunderstood your comment.
David, thanks for those links! Some interesting stuff in there (I’m going to be plowing into the rest of that site at some point too). The Wire’s list seemed a bit too heavy on “avant garde” stuff, but if they were sticking to the theme of “sparking people’s imagination” I guess I can see that.
I wasn’t aware Autumn Sonata was a film people point to when asked what Bergman they know of… I would say at the very least it would be 6th or 7th on such a list, seemingly beyond the canon, but then again I am not a total Bergman geek so I could easily be wrong in this regard.
That’s fair enough, you are probably right. I think that the 7th or 8th Bergman movie should still be a worldwide wellknown celebrated masterpiece, but maybe it isn’t.
At one point somebody asked me to shout off a quick top 5 movies of all time. Another guy next to me said as a joke “It would just be 5 Bergman films”. I thought about that, and I said I could not make that list, because it could contain 5 Bergman films, and there would still be Bergman films that I felt should be on there.
I think that’s what’s good about the Beyond The Canon list. For more casual wannabe film buffs it’s a good place to find out about other titles worth watching in a director like Bergman’s oeuvre. Someone only just getting into world and art-house cinema may have only heard of The Seventh Seal. For more seasoned filmgoers it’s not that much of a revelation, but it’s still interesting and reminds you of some titles that might have passed you by for whatever reason.
In case it isn’t clear from my comments, Autumn Sonata is an emotionally devastating masterpiece that everybody should see.
I was never disappointed in the OFC’s list. It was an experiment. I had no hypothesis as to what the outcome would be when I came up with the idea, no sense of how it was going to turn out, I was just curious and thought it’d be a fun way to bring sites in the blogosphere together. I can’t be disappointed in the results just because they didn’t agree with my own list. The more obscure titles had trouble making it, because they just didn’t recur on enough lists. So, while I was passionate about The Great Silence and Le Samourai making the list, if only two or three others had watched it, it would never make the list when compared to something like The Godfather which probably every single voter had watched. It was just the nature of the progressive voting system we had set up and I’m sure there is another way we could do it.
As for doing it again, Andrew and I spent waaaaay too many hours tallying and contacting people and collecting submitions. I’m not sure if I am that ambitious any longer or even care enough to do it or anything like it again.
Hey Jonathan…Just to be clear, there wasn’t any specific criticism in my post about the OFC list. Like you said, the task of rolling up so many people’s picks will remove the unique ones. It’s a given and unfortunate that not enough people realized that going in. I admit that I was “disappointed” in the list, but that’s simply because I’d hoped for a few more interesting selections to bubble up. Looking at it logically afterwards, that wasn’t a reasonable expectation.
The list itself certainly has great movies on it though and it simply is what it is. I’m still baffled why many people got upset about it…But I don’t want to start that argument again.