Cinecast Episode 132 – Tap Dancing Through a Field of Landmines

Episode 132:
A review of RiP! A Remix Manifesto turns into a full blown tangent on international copyright laws, downloading and property infringement – and a little U2 bashing for good measure. After that it’s half ass reviews of ‘(250) Days of Summer’ and Princess Mononoke and a return to the “on the road” segment – which gets a wee bit spirited as Gamble realizes for the first time that an iPod is actually kind of a small screen (verbal lambasting ensues). DVD picks tangents and the usual whathaveyous are all there.

Enjoy.

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COVERED IN TODAY’S SHOW:
RiP! A Remix Manifesto
– – Matt’s review
– – Rot’s review
– – RowThree interview with director Brett Gaylor
– – Open Source Cinema
– – Download the movie!
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor
500 Days of Summer
Ink
– – trailer courtesy of WhereTheLongTailEnds.com
Princess Mononoke
Ghostbusters

DVD picks:
Sita Sings the Blues
Harvard Beats Yale 29-29
Saragossa Manuscript
Big Man Japan

also on DVD:
“BSG” (complete series)
Necessary Evil
“Doll House” (season 1)

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Goon
Guest

I have some semi-rebuttals to points made in the RiP discussion:

As much as I am pro downloading and completely on board with the people going after the MPAA and RIAA…

I don't identify with the 'activism' of stopping buying cds, and the justifications people give. For one, it's weird hearing this from people who buy shitloads of DVDs and put down hundreds of dollars towards movies funded by the same excess filled companies that own a number of these record labels, and are part of an organization that is just as much a problem in this overall war. The only difference is that there are companies better equipped movie-wise to cater to the digital crowd and its more difficult/slower to get new movies online when you want them, and at a reasonable quality. Plus the theater experience is one people find is still worth paying for. The 'bad guys' are still getting plenty of money.

So really downloading/never buying music is at best people taking the fight the easiest place they can, and at worst just showing what people can do whenever they can get something for free, and the justifications from many people are lame and/or spin for saving some money towards stuff they CANT get for free. Like those movies, a Blu-Ray player, Sony games, or an Ipod to put even more free music on.

The absolute worst Digital Rights Management cd experience I have had is at the fault of Sony. A hardcore/metal band I like called Life of Agony had a CD from 2005 that was only one of a couple dozen to have a specific kind of DRM software on it that has literally fucked my computer. It inserted its own player the second I put the CD in my computer that attached itself to the BIOS and now I cant use my regular CD player or rip/burn anything else. It made a connection to the web open for trojans that required some major cleanup. It's going to be a bitch to remove. This CD was from Epic/Sony.

So I could boycott and be mad, but if I want to see Moon, which I've seen twice now, if I want to get a PS3 or a Blu Ray player, guess who's getting more money?

Okay that was a bit of a tangent. Anyways back to CDs. I like them. I like tangible copies, I like listening to CDs from my CD player with a big surround system, and I don't like listening to music off the computer very much, it doesn't sound as good to me. I download and buy for most of the stuff I like, and am proud of it. Most of the bands I buy CDs from are on indie labels. One such band is the Most Serene Republic, a member of which practically lived at my house all year a couple summers ago, their band pictures people see when theres any article on them were taken in my bathroom. My picture is among the faces in their "Population" cd. They're on Arts&Crafts, the same label as Feist, Broken Social Scene and may other major indie bands. They're neither huge nor unknown. They get decent but not stellar reviews.

Last I checked the members of this band work at a local Sears Portrait Studio, Rogers Video, and other menial jobs. A person that says they're going to get their money directly to them is just fine, but guess what – they don't tour everywhere a person who would do that can get their money to them because they don't sell enough albums because their kind of fans download more than they buy. This "I buy T-shirts and go to shows" promise people make for the most part is a load of shit. People don't see that many shows, they don't buy that many T shirts. It's spin, and without some actual album sales bands like them either get dropped, break up out of frustration of never growing, or 'sell out' so they can make a living off their craft. One thing that certainly happens is they don't have the benefit of more free time to hone their craft and improve.

So major labels are fucking artists in the ass, but so are the supposed fans of these bands, using bullshit excuses for not buying albums out of some protest while funding other media and their workers who need their money MUCH LESS. And the bands getting fucked hardest are the ones working outside the major label system. And when you add all the foreign bands who can't really tour here easily or often, this 'I'll buy a ticket' mentality simply does not fly.

Finally, I'm over the Metallica crap, with asterisks. I don't think I buy that they didn't know what they were doing, because the underground metal tape trading circuit is what made them stars in the first place, and what continues to make them one of the biggest bands in the entire world. I think its obvious though now they admit they were wrong, and I'd say Gamble is wrong that they never recovered because current tour revenues and the upswing in record sales simply show otherwise. It seems all most of their fans wanted was an apology, and they got it, and I think after the nadir/embarrassment over scenes in Some Kind of Monster, they ended up getting some sympathy over them as flawed people with real problems/insecurities rather than just seeing them as asshole rockstars. A lot of people thought that movie ruined them, but I think it saved them.

One thing I completely sympathize with even rich rock stars over though, is some of the issues of control. None of these people can roll out their albums with a proper campaign or months long of regular anticipatory hype anymore because the second its leaked, its over. I'll download and be excited over a leak, but I really do think its unfair to rob the artists of the simple pleasure of a proper release date unveiling, rather than "oh thats out now? yeah, i got that two months ago."

Kurt
Guest

@Goon "“oh thats out now? yeah, i got that two months ago.”"

(Epic comment by the way, above)

A good album is a good album, and I don't see how 'getting it early dampens enthusiasm. I'm such a casual consumer of music, I tend to only get recommendations from friends, and even then, only a few albums a year. I went through my hardcore musical phase in the 1990s, and just sort of got burned out keeping up with all the indie rock, electronic and other musical movements. Now, I still follow a few artists, and occasionally something like Neko Case or Arcade Fire will come along that really gets me excited, but mostly, it is all background (to me).

Goon
Guest

"I simply don’t because it’s a pain in the ass."

This or saying that they just dont value music as much to me may be upsetting to some degree, but its much more acceptable to me who proudly proclaim some it as some stand against the companies. Because I hear this off the time. Its the laziest most self serving activism I've ever heard of, thats for sure.

"Then I buy a ticket and tell all my friends that they gotta come with me."

You have the benefit of living in a bigger city, as do I. But so many people will throw out this 'I support them other ways' excuse where they dont even have the opportunity to prove it. And I still doubt you see as many acts live to support them as you download, I doubt anyone does.

"A good album is a good album, and I don’t see how ‘getting it early dampens enthusiasm."

Again I'm talking from the perspective of the artists, and being able to reveal something when you want to reveal it, and having a specific time to unleash your product and be able to visit your own forums and see a groundswell of discussion over its merits, rather than have it leaked and possibly forgotten before it even hits stores. Jay mentioned a couple times on the FJ podcast about how music these days is devalued in so many peoples eyes, how its instantly downloadable and instantly disposable, skipping over things, fewer true album experiences because technology and downloading and the vast amounts of product now at your disposable through torrenting well…

it can help you build a library, but as a whole theres a good argument that its hurting music. Not sales specifically, but as a whole, music as an art form.

Goon
Guest

For me, the ultimate value of downloading is measured in finding things that simply do not exist in retail form. Finding any regular album by any North American band on mininova or wherever is not special, but finding HBO comedy specials ripped and put into tracks, Japanese b-sides, and things you'll have to wait an unreasonable time for to get a North American release… (ie right now for me, Manic Street Preachers new album)

Goon
Guest

One thing I cant figure out though because of torrenting/Internet, is who the hell are these people paying for porn.

rot
Guest

"it can help you build a library, but as a whole theres a good argument that its hurting music. Not sales specifically, but as a whole, music as an art form."

I don't see it that way, I see it evolving. There was all this press about Michael Jackson being this great icon and looking at the present with some disdain, like that will never happen again. and I say good. The same way the world used to watch the same three channels and have the same three programs and top ten billboard charts as reference points for 'culture' has ceased to exist, I say good riddance. Let culture splinter and no longer be determined by a lowest common denominator watered down popularity (which American Idol still perpetuates in part).

music will remain an art form, in fact become a more fertile art form because the means of creation and distribution are now more accessible, and like I said before, it becomes a meritocracy not an oligarchy, if its good and suits a particular niche, that niche will hear it and respond.

Let HMV die, let professionalism die, let the notion of the 'album' die if it has to… if the world is changing it seems silly to resist it with the arts, that they have to be fixed to an older ideal, they will adapt to the new world, they will find their new place in the scheme of people's lives, and be relevant because they do.

As with Twitter, I am greatly optimistic about where we are heading, I think the capital for film will more and more come into the hands of the artists and the distribution will find a way outside of Big Media, as is happening with music. The floodgates are open now and creativity is more than ever (well at least not since the Renaissance) been such a viable means of expression.

Goon
Guest

"The same way the world used to watch the same three channels and have the same three programs and top ten billboard charts as reference points for ‘culture’ has ceased to exist, I say good riddance."

Choice is all well and good, but without some collective shared experiences in culture, all revolutions in music are going to be limited to genre audiences who have to seek it out, rather than affecting everyone, and bringing about some collective progress. There's something to be said about certain cultural things pushing everyone together and forward. If a Nirvana type band isn't going to rise out of nothing into a big mainstream movement, what WILL fill that place is the lowest common denominator.

"let professionalism die, let the notion of the ‘album’ die if it has to…"

I'm not sure you know what you're saying when you say these things. Let the album die? So we move forward to a place where any collection of songs is about its pieces rather than the sum of its parts, and we dont have experiences that rely on context of how things fit together? What are you saying exactly?

"the distribution will find a way outside of Big Media, as is happening with music. "

are you referring to the pay-what-you-can formula from people like NIN and Radiohead? Because to me thats a pipe dream, only established bands who want to part ways with old business can afford this model, for almost everyone else you're asking a band to put on a dozen other hats in order to put such a model together. It's unrealistic.

Going back to the "I buy a ticket" thing, to me that sort of thinking is weird, I mean you support them one way you feed the media companies, and you go the other way you feed the beast that is Ticketmaster. Personally, I'd rather see Ticketmaster fall than the labels who are putting an investment into the art that we are enjoying.

Dave
Guest

: If a Nirvana type band isn’t going to rise out of nothing into a big mainstream movement, what WILL fill that place is the lowest common denominator."

And when end up with bullshit like this:

*Please to embed video, R3 gods. It is safe for work if not your sensibility.

Goon
Guest

I have no idea what you just said, Dave. Try again?

rot
Guest

regarding albums dying, referring directly to what Goon wrote here:

"Jay mentioned a couple times on the FJ podcast about how music these days is devalued in so many peoples eyes, how its instantly downloadable and instantly disposable, skipping over things, fewer true album experiences because technology and downloading and the vast amounts of product now at your disposable through torrenting well…"

and is it really so hard to fathom this, that the conceptual idea of an album could cease to exist as an important marker of an artist's work? As things get fragmented, and shuffled on ipods, what does it matter what album it came from? I am not saying Albums MUST DIE, I am saying if they do, so be it. but to get to what Andrew said, yes, why not let mixtapes exchanged between people be the rightful order of a selection of songs? Once again, the creative culture can take down the divide between artists and consumers.

"are you referring to the pay-what-you-can formula from people like NIN and Radiohead? Because to me thats a pipe dream, only established bands who want to part ways with old business can afford this model, for almost everyone else you’re asking a band to put on a dozen other hats in order to put such a model together. It’s unrealistic."

I am less interested in this as a business (which clearly you are Goon), I am interested in someone who has a guitar and some lyrics he/she wrote, and is able to get that music out into the world. That person may be a plumber, a taxi driver, a Starbucks barista, but they are getting a chance to be heard and that is what I am talking about… the exchange of art, not the commodification of it, and how that impacts the economy. I think we are at a crossroads where the old world collapses and something new has to emerge, and maybe in this new world there won't be U2 Zooropa tours because of the splintering, and again, I say I am fine with that… let it fall. the music will still be there, the same as it was in the cotton fields, in barber shops, in folk festivals… what it may cease to be if profitable, or as profitable as it was. so be it.

I see this in all the arts… writing, movies… art shouldn't be something we buy, or not just something we buy, it should become woven into our daily activities. This is the movement I am optimistic about… the business model of Big Media is dying, thats not just hyperbole, look around you.

rot
Guest

as for not having a cultural core to hold onto, that we all know Nirvana… we all knew Nirvana at the expense of not knowing a lot of other musicians who weren't in the Big Business club, who weren't financed and had a particular look at a particular time to be big.

Culture will still develop even when splintered, trends will never stop happening, things catch on and are spread virally… if Nirvana were culturally worth the notoriety they got then in a meritocracy it would come to pass.

Being decentralized now, we all go our separate ways, find the people that have tastes in common with us and enrich the experience… that becomes culture. When the hit critical mass they register on the popular consciousness.

rot
Guest

I also think I can come at this optimistically because I for the most part do not adhere to fanboy notions of the commodity as something to be worshiped. Go ahead, remake Red Beard, remix Freewheelin', write A Moveable Feast from the perspective of Gertrude Stein, none of this phases me in the least… as Jay always says (I think its' him), I always have the original if I want it.

Goon
Guest

"and is it really so hard to fathom this, that the conceptual idea of an album could cease to exist as an important marker of an artist’s work?"

For countless artists, if you kill the album, you kill the artist. You don't understand how important, especially for the underground, the album is to sustaining a career. The importance of catalogue.

"I am less interested in this as a business"

You seem to naively believe that creative culture can just thrive and be of superior quality without any business element whatsoever, like artists will just continue on and improve without being able to sustain a decent living. That you prattle on with this plumber aside as if all these artists are just okay with their shitty jobs because they have the 'chance to be heard' is mind numbingly stupid to me. You clearly have never tried to make a living as an artist. What you are saying to me is like the idiotic offers I get to do work for free because "you can put it in your portfolio". There is a vital economy of art that I actually believe you don't properly respect.

"art shouldn’t be something we buy, or not just something we buy, it should become woven into our daily activities."

It already is, but theres a difference between hearing music for free at a grocery store and never putting any money back in the artists pockets. A sad idealistic naive post about your intentions and ideas of arts doesn't pay to produce my friends' next album.

"we all knew Nirvana at the expense of not knowing a lot of other musicians"

Think about this again for a second, about the wave of new music that Nirvana spurred, the revolution in rock radio it spurred, the decades of past underground alternative acts, from the Pixies to Orange Juice, that was opened to the world because of them. I don't think you have an argument here. The only doors that were shut down were Mr. Big and Extreme's penthouse doors.

"If Nirvana were culturally worth the notoriety they got then in a meritocracy it would come to pass."

More idealistic garbage. This meritocracy plan of yours is so damn naive, and you're overusing that word big time at this point as if its 'paradigm' or 'proactive'.

"Being decentralized now, we all go our separate ways, find the people that have tastes in common with us and enrich the experience… "

There is something to be shared about selective specific shared experiences. Quoting from Klosterman:

"If you’re having drinks with a stranger in a bar and "Swallowed" comes on the jukebox, and you say, "You know, this is the one Bush song I like," and the guy you’re talking to says, "Yes, this is probably as good as any Pixies song," you will immediately like this guy more. If you then stroll over to some girl and mention that you just happened to see Lars von Trier’s The Five Obstructions, and she says, "That is my favorite self-reflexive Danish documentary of the past five years," the odds of you kissing this woman immediately increase 40 percent. If you then sit down at a table with five bozos who are intensely discussing the 1985 Atlanta Hawks- and you just happened to have had a poster of Dominique Wilkins on your wall when you were in junior high- you will immediately feel more comfortable. This is not the purpose of art and culture, but it’s probably the biggest social benefit; these shared experiences are how we connect with other people, and it’s how we understand our own identity."

But at the same time, when I visit underground indie rock forums, or underground indie punk or metal forums, what I find is obnoxious closed minded label pinning us vs. them mentality, strict definitions of their own genre, circling of wagons. It's as bad or worse than political partisanship.

Goon
Guest

How the hell does one bring 'meritocracy' into this situation, when you're talking about something as subjective as art? Seriously, it comes across like you just popped that word in there so you could use it again.

Marina Antunes
Admin

I sort of lost track of music when at 17 when I bought my first portable CD player. With no radio to listen to, new music didn't really enter my playlist unless it was from an artist I was already a fan of. I've been pretty stagnant for years mostly having friends feeding me stuff they like but the last few years have been awesome BECAUSE of the internet. I've "discovered" more new music in the last 2 years than in the last 10 combined. Thumbs up for the internet in that respect. Extra big kudos to Last.fm for expanding those horizons even further but when it comes to music downloading, I'm on the fence.

On the one hand I completely understand and see where Goon's coming from and agree that some bands only stay alive because of album sales. In the same breath, the internet has also allowed for bands that no one other than family and friends would ever have known about to gain some, however small, fanbase. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll make a career out of it but they are being heard. This democratizing of music is awesome for me as a fan. It's so much easier to check out new bands, find new sounds and new groups I like. I listen to stuff now that I wouldn't have given a chance to if I had to first shell out $10 for a CD.

Have I completely stopped buying albums? No but I'm buying less and less and the few that I do buy I do so only out of love for the artist and sometimes, they give back. Admittedly, the only CDs I've bought over the last 3 years are NIN albums and then only because I have a completionist mentality when it comes to the Halo releases but damn if I don't love the added bonus of glossing insides, CDs that change colour and 5.1 audio. Actually, if more bands released remastered audio in 5.1 surround I'd be buying more albums but I realize I'm in the minority on that one.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Simple explanation:

Look at where the old system has evolved to. Massive Record labels and overpriced CDs and the blandest palette of Radio since the medium was invented. American Idol and pre-fabricated corporate Pop.

Let's try something new. A lot of the 'massive hording' of downloaded music would cease the moment it became legal. Then the actual rhythms of what Mike was talking about could settle in. It's hard to judge what the new city is going to look like while you are standing in the Hurricane bringing down the old one.

Goon
Guest

the bottom line is great artists quit every day because people wont lay down anything to support them.

"The music will still be there" because there will always be wide eyed kids who dont understand how things actually work and who havent been crushed by the process of getting heard… to replace the people who are great but quit out of frustration. Think of how much a band from Toronto will make at a club, then figure of that getting split X ways, and the transportation costs, costs of upkeep of instruments, it's not a winning game. The people that usually quit are the ones who are actually SMART enough to realize this, this process doesn't inherently weak out the less talented. It's not a meritocracy, its not even survival of the fittest, its survival of the dumbest and/or those who can't do anything else. And like I said, even the friends of mine who get signed to a hot label and have decent reviews, still work at video stores and portrait studios.

Goon
Guest

"Look at where the old system has evolved to. Massive Record labels and overpriced CDs and the blandest palette of Radio since the medium was invented. American Idol and pre-fabricated corporate Pop."

Lol, 'evolved'? The main record labels were always about this sort of thing. Is there a need to 'try something new' when it comes to indie labels who are fair to their artists? Going back to my underground bands, most of these bands have never sold a million copies or had a music video played on MTV, but they have dozens of albums and can keep touring everywhere because their fans actually DO buy their albums and DO show up. It seems to me most people downloading mainstream albums or trendy albums, and I really am pointing at a lot of the hipster kids, aren't buying albums because so many of them really don't have that much connection or devotion to what they're listening to. "Something new" can't fix built in apathy, and you cant put everything on the labels. Teen girls are more devoted to the Jonas Brothers than the indie kids are devoted to the Dirty Projectors. Marketing machine or not, this is the way it is.

"A lot of the ‘massive hording’ of downloaded music would cease the moment it became legal. "

I dont believe this for a second. Andrew suggested a service for unlimited downloading subscriptions. People will still go to other places to get leaks in advance, find what they can't get, or just continue because its free and they're used to it being free.

Everyone wants to go 'blah blah industry' and talk about burning down all these concepts, when a number of the indies aren't really doing anybody wrong, are giving away free stuff left and right to keep good relations with their fans, etc, and people still wont pay for anything they release. when record companies start dropping, a lot of those indies wont be spared.

So many people who say they're willing to support indie artists still have very good outlets to prove it, and they're not doing it, so all the other finger pointing and 'we need a new way' rings so false to me, as they fill up their 300 dollar 120 gig ipods with music they didnt pay an artist for in any capacity.

rot
Guest

Goon, calm down. you always got to make this personal. Its becoming a real chore trying to make points with you because you don't just challenge my opinions you belittle them, you wipe your ass on them and say "see".

a meritocracy… so let me explain. anyone with the means and the time can make music and distribute it online. those who like the music will listen to it and maybe share it, and perhaps considering how many people like the music, it will register beyond a niche group into something else. It got where it did, its gained exposure because of people liking it and sharing it, because of it's merit. I am not here to judge why people like what they like, but you have to admit, if people are drawn to Girl Talk because its fun and they like listening to it, and then share it, its getting its publicity through merit, it in essence earned its popularity directly… I hope that makes sense because I don't know how more clearer I can be on this point. meritocracy is a great word and I will use it because it makes sense.

"You seem to naively believe that creative culture can just thrive and be of superior quality without any business element whatsoever, like artists will just continue on and improve without being able to sustain a decent living."

two points regarding this creative culture…

1) its already happening, its already here, and I am not creating it, so you can relax on me and look at the organic development of this phenomenon and wave your fist in that direction.

2) I don't care what happens to a certain sect of artists. Its not my decision that changes the tide, but even if it did, if we could go back to the model of prize-winning Artists that make it up the ranks according to what the people with money think will sell best, and that the rest of us who do not fit that very small minority, we must sit back as consumers and buy and digest this Art as something separate… fuck that. I mean really, if you think that is progress and what is happening now is a regress, wow. Again a small minority of artists can live off their art, most do have day jobs, even in this idyllic business model you talk of.

And its not either/or, I am not saying everything MUST BE free… I bought two Girl Talk's album, and as someone with disposable cash I will do so for the artists I like. Like the organic foods movement, it will start small, but people will pay more, will make a deliberate decision to pay for things so long as they understand it will allow the artist they like to subsist, and is not about padding the pockets of execs. Lots of people will take the art for free, and that will at least give exposure… but there will be people like me who will pay because they see the direct link between them and the artist. We see this now with podcasts being funded by paypal donations… expenses can be paid for those that are deemed of merit.

And once more, about pop culture, it will not vanish, if you look at twitter for example, I don't know how many millions of people are probably on it, discussing a billion different things, but because we can tag things, certain topics rise to the surface as part of the social consciousness. We don't all go underground and never see one another again, we go down there and want to share ti with the world, and that want to share will persevere anything. the things that people deem of merit, will become big.

oh and make a note here, because I am amazed you haven't understood me on this point on this or the other thread…

merit means it has a value to somebody (I am not passing judgment on what that value is, i.e. your 'subjective' rant), and in a meritocracy those things that are meaningful to a majority rise to the surface. In an oligarchy, a select few anticipate what they think the public wants, and whenever possible markets it so they do like it. I prefer grassroots.

rot
Guest

"the bottom line is great artists quit every day because people wont lay down anything to support them."

I will concede this, a lot of people will be out of jobs… like I said, new PARADIGM, the old way will die off to make room for the new. Lots of people that had JOBS as ARTISTS will be unemployed because of those damn scabs, the public, who will want to share their art in whatever circumstance affords it them. Small price to pay for the majority of zombies in the world to awaken to the joys of artistic expression, might even reinforce a newfound respect for it, as not just a career but a way of life.

rot
Guest

the job-artists don't own the right to self-expression… and I think its more so the influx of people willing to do art for free or at least less than a yacht that is forcing them into unemployment. Certainly that is the case with radio and newspapers, television… its the saturation of a new creative culture, and god bless it.

Goon
Guest

I'm insulting the ideas, not you, and some of the ideas I can't use any better word than ignorant or idiotic.

"Small price to pay for the majority of zombies in the world to awaken to the joys of artistic expression"

Again I believe you are thinking in idealistic unrealistic terms and willing to sacrifice the pragmatic realistic exchange of art for an idea that can't progress until you solve other problems first. To me you're talking about burning down the forest for the sake of the trees. That's how it comes across.

And I still think you're abusing or twisting the word meritocracy into whatever you want it to mean. Its just one of a number of buzzwords being thrown around or being used to define whatever they want it to mean. My understanding is simply leadership and reward based solely on merit, and that is at odds with reality/how people actually are.

And I think if you're taking it personally, there's not much more I can say that wont offend you, because I seriously find your ideas here extremely unrealistic/naive/idealistic and most of all, not sustainable.

Goon
Guest

"the job-artists don’t own the right to self-expression… and I think its more so the influx of people willing to do art for free or at least less than a yacht that is forcing them into unemployment."

I'm all for outsider art or art that can come from anyone – the countless myspaces of home demos and people sharing gifs and youtube videos for no reason other than to amuse/create, but I think your post here is kind of insulting to the people with years of training and investment into their craft, study, and practice. The vast majority of these actual trained and capable musicians are doing their work for next to nothing already, much less a yacht. It's all well and good to be excited about all you can get for free, but when you have disposable income and you're NEVER paying for albums anymore, sorry, but that gets on my nerves, and thus I completely understand the frustration of artists who put all this time effort and money into a superior product, who have all these fans, but can't get back what they put in. You say all this stuff about a meritocracy, but what good is it when your merit makes you a star, everyone enjoys your work, but they're never paying you for it? Or even paying anyone else? Is the attention itself supposed to be a reward? Can you fund your next album with attention?

rot
Guest

then we disagree Goon.

It will not be a smooth transition, but there will be a transition where the privileged status of Artist is no longer regarded as sharply, and that the more people become accustom to self-expression, the more great works will come of it, works that people will follow (by merit of its value).

You worry about the economic side of this issue… that is my unrealistic part…

first of all, I expect all currency to be digital very soon, and that will be something like paypal that everyone has, and the exchange of money for artists directly will be all the more natural an occurrence. I like a musician, he tweets me and the million others that are following him because of the distribution channels he choose, and says times are tight, wants to remind people to donate to him if they want music from him in the future… if I care about the art, really care about it, I will do it. That is what I mean by meritocracy, those whose talents are deemed of worth rise.

the established artists will adapt or die. The lucrative allure of being an Artist will go with it, and those just trying to get rich or die tryin' will leave. This could make the art scene a much more richer place, people there because of true love for it. People can subsist on art, they do and always will, the difference is it will not be lucrative anymore. and it will depend on how well you are received, the affection of your fans.

Goon
Guest

See, when I see

"I listen to stuff now that I wouldn’t have given a chance to if I had to first shell out $10 for a CD."

and then

"Admittedly, the only CDs I’ve bought over the last 3 years are NIN albums"

it really bugs me. If you're in a band and people aren't buying your music, thats a problem. If you're in a band and people like your music and they still aren't buying it, that's got to make your blood burn. "I would have never heard it anyways it it wasnt free" doesnt change the fact that the end result is still no sales. For every Lily Allen that rises out of myspace there are hundreds of other bands who sell a lot less that they otherwise would.

Angst against the majors and available of free music has changed the way people look at music, and the people paying for it the most are the people who are working hardest to sustain a living making music, and are barely scraping. That isn't right. If you love music and film equally or nearly as much as each other, and you have disposable income for DVDs every week, I can't see the justification for rarely/never paying for music. I guess I'm looking for at least some more balance, and there is none.

Goon
Guest

All I ask of anyone is to think of how much they love music, and how much they love film. Then calculate how many albums they paid for last year, and how many DVDs they paid for last year. I would hope you have some balance of your passion vs. your dollar, otherwise I think my cynicism about people just taking whatever they can get for free/taking musicians for granted is validated.

Marina Antunes
Admin

Just because I give it a chance, it's just that, a chance. I download stuff that I listen to once and don't like. DELETE. I download stuff that I do like and then BUY CDs/music.

Case in point. Late last year I heard a song on some random YouTube video. Reading the comments found out who the band was and the title of the song. Found the album. Downloaded to take a listen. LOVED. Went into iTunes and bought more – BECAUSE I like the music and wanted to support the artists. If they ever come into town – I'll be calling ticketmaster to buy me tickets to the show. Not saying that everyone is the same way but I refuse to believe that no one else is doing something similar.

Goon
Guest

I'm not saying to everyone they need to buy everything they download. Torrenting and downloading and ripping etc to me is as fine a way to discover as anything else, and especially good to hold you over until you can buy if you want to.

I think if you have disposable income and love music, you should be buying something from a good chunk of those artists. I can't support downloading in cases where people love music and can afford music but will rarely/never pay the artist for it through cds or t shirts or concerts or some other form. I believe as it is now downloading is being over abused, beyond even a reasonable buy/like/listen ratio, to the point people are downloading way more than they can ever have time to listen to.

Dave
Guest

*sigh* This is what I was trying to show:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Kt3MTxzJti4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Kt3MTxzJti4&hl=en&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Goon
Guest

auto tune metal?

jesus.

Still better than BrokenCyde:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-TH5ibABP4U&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-TH5ibABP4U&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Marina Antunes
Admin

Holy crap. That last one is AWFUL. Who thought it would be cool to cross the club vibe with screeching? God help me I think my eardrums just went.

Goon
Guest

I know. I mean Attack Attack made some bad choices, but I can see a decent metalcore band with some retooling and abandonment of auto tune. Brokencyde are just an unsalvageable abortion of sound.

Goon
Guest

That video has almost 2 million views, and I'm positive the majority of them are from "check out this awful garbage" links.

Marina Antunes
Admin

"unsalvageable abortion of sound."

That is the greatest line ever.

I listen to some questionable stuff but this isn't good.

The band I discovered from the YouTube video is Within Temptation. Hubby tells me it puts him to sleep

<center><object width="320" height="265"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fCF3VPwLHUU&hl=en&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="265"></embed></object></center>

And some time after that, I found Korpiklaani

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Goon
Guest

I enjoy both of those bands quite a bit. WT's live CD/DVD is absolutely the best live DVD I've seen of any band ever. Sharon is one of the best female singers in the world, bar none, and one of the few that deserves the word 'angelic' attached. Their songwriting and orchestration is top notch in this set, dozens of HD cameras, costume changes, stiltwalkers, full orchestra and choral choir. Extremely high production values without reaching U2 absurd levels.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vp9bpbMvcnc&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vp9bpbMvcnc&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If an American pop singer released this as a ballad, it would be huge.

Goon
Guest

(my other 'best ever' live dvds are probably Faith No More's "You Fat Bastards" and Yeah Yeah Yeahs' "Tell me what rockers to swallow")

Goon
Guest

If The Departed had been set in Europe instead of Boston, Korpiklaani would replace the Dropkick Murphys on the soundtrack 😛

Marina Antunes
Admin

@goon Actually, a few weeks ago Last.fm recommended Xandria. I picked up their latest album and was a disappointed but liked a few tunes from "Ravenheart". You familiar with them? Any other recommendations?

Goon
Guest

I wasnt too impressed with Xandria.

For someone who likes WT, I'd move on to

Nightwish – new stuff poppy, older stuff more operatic. For example of the former look up "Amaranth" and "Sahara", for example of the latter check "Ghost Love Score" and "Nemo"

After Forever – search "Energize Me" on youtube

Epica – check "Chasing the Dragon" or "Never Enough" on youtube

The Gathering – earlier = heavier, I like the Nighttime Birds and How to Measure a Planet albums best. after those they got really really light/atmospheric.

Lacuna Coil – Comalies album has the hits, after that they americanized their sound maybe too much.

Unsun – heavily accented English but catchy and a major grower of an album

Sirenia – only their new album does it for me, again, accented English. Singer was a major pop star in Spain and they recruited her. Check "Path to Decay" on youtube.

Marina Antunes
Admin

You're rocking my world right now. Thank you sir!

Goon
Guest

I really have a huge thing for European female singers, and they just so happen to show up in Eurometal bands all the time. For pop/electronic female singers I like Lene Nystrom (Aqua / her really really shockingly sleazy solo album ), Robyn (former teen idol / Knife and Royksopp protege), Bjork of course, and again of course Karen from the Knife.

Goon
Guest

For a good american female fronted metal/hardcore band check out In this Moment. Every song is catchy and it grows every time, singer can both screech and soar, they've got some Alice in Wonderland theme going on through both albums.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eecFm2iRo7Q&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eecFm2iRo7Q&hl=en&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Dave
Guest

" I mean Attack Attack made some bad choices, but I can see a decent metalcore band with some retooling and abandonment of auto tune."

And *this* is why you and I will never see eye to eye on music. We may share a brain sometimes on movies, but as with many things in this life, some things are solely mine and some are solely yours.

Dave
Guest

"Throw in Evanescence for good measure. "

Hey now, don't pick on the unemployed.

rot
Guest

"Can you fund your next album with attention?"

I guess you could ask Girl Talk that question.

with regards to the trained and able musicians out there, it was never a fair game to begin with, let's be honest. If anything, there is a little more of an even playing field where amateurs can get recognition hitherto reserved for people being groomed. If you have a talent people want to hear from, then the excess attention you gets gives you opportunities that than can be exploited for monetary patronage. Bands with their own websites with ads on them, with paypal donations, with live gigs, with incentives for buying their 'albums', their paraphenialia. People with the means will pay for things they love, that will never stop, it will be a more intimate business model, like cottage industries, Girl Talk will tweet asking for donations, and because people love what he does, enough people will pay…

those who have success will get paid, those who are not successful will work day jobs and eek by, like they do now.

in the end, I don't have sympathy for the trained Artists, they have to adapt like everyone else to the new economy. For all that people can bemoan the internet for what it takes a way, it also does wonders for exposure… and you know, I hate to say it, but if we are really talking about art and not careerism, wide recognition is something to desire, Philip K Dick went without it, Kafka, Van Gogh, and they had talent AND a business model that did nothing for them. The recognition alone could kickstart financial gains as an offshoot, Dick could have sold the rights to his stories while he was alive, rather than die in virtual poverty.

The means of ferreting out talent and giving them a deserved audience (the meritocracy) allows those artists, trained or otherwise, whose talents are deemed valuable, to be in a position to request donations, or work within new means of making money then selling millions of records.

when the Big Media collapses, and it can no longer support the American Idol crowd, and the corporate-made sensations ween out, there will be a time of grass roots discoveries that rise and rise and capture the imagination of audiences. A generation in, it may become commonplace, that you become a patron directly of the artists you like… perhaps a new fangled technology will make this adjustment as artists fear the adjustment in a world post-Big Media.

Art and artists will not die alongside the business model, it will readjust, and spread out, and be less a privileged occupation engineered by a corporate agenda, and more intimately bound.

the local farmers markets will over time grow in popularity and continue to infringe on the profits of Big Produce

The internet sensations will over time grow in popularity and overtake the profits of Big Media

its not a pipe dream, its happening, and this notion that it is naive seems odd to me… its an inevitability, the more power put in the hands of the consumers to choose what they want, while exposed to more knowledge of what is out there = the rise of a creative self-expressive culture that will find a way to sustain itself, to monetize its existence. Networks exist to push this forward, Rip! is an example of this on the front of copyright laws, and its in everything. the powers will fight but they will lose, the technology is too great to overcome.

Marina Antunes
Admin

"If you put all those tracks side by side on a mix I’d never know the difference between them."

I don't believe that for a second. You have a better ear than that – some may sound similar but they're all different.

And fucking Nickelback. Vancouver is never going to live that one down (though technically, I think they're from Surrey or Langley or something).

“Throw in Evanescence for good measure. ”

I liked Evanescence for all of two second. Not sure what went wrong there. More surprised that their rise didn't give way for some much more talented European bands.

As far as American indie is concerned, one of the best albums I bought last year was the Gossip Girl S1 compilation:

Track listing:

1. Sour Cherry – The Kills

2. Do You Wanna – The Kooks

3. Do the Panic – Phantom Planet

4. Feeling Better – The Teenagers

5. One Week of Danger [Demo Version] – The Virgins

6. Got Your Number – Nadia Oh

7. Crimewave [Crystal Castles vs. Health] – Crystal Castles

8. Fight Song – The Republic Tigers

9. Cities in Dust – Junkie XL

10. We Started Nothing – The Ting Tings

11. Breakfast in NYC – Oppenheimer

12. Three Wishes – The Pierces

13. Hard to Live in the City – Albert Hammond, Jr.

Marina Antunes
Admin

And that Nadia Oh tune is bloody catchy as hell

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Dave
Guest

"the local farmers markets will over time grow in popularity and continue to infringe on the profits of Big Produce"

Ahhaha. . .ahahahahahah. . .AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Not if Monsanto has ANYTHING to say about that!

Dave
Guest

Most of the music in this thread just don't appeal to the maths in my brain.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Agreed, none of this comes close to being interesting to me either….Man I feel old just opening those YouTube vids, this stuff (every vid in this thread) is kindergarden. Yie.

Marina
Guest

Netflix for music = Zune Pass. Ifmo one else gets to it first, I'll elaborate… when not typing from mini keyboard.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Anyone else getting this kind of a vibe from Goon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_NhnXMCKw

Goon
Guest

"If you put all those tracks side by side on a mix I’d never know the difference between them."

It's fine if its not your thing. I'm sure if I played a dozen thrash, black or death metal songs in a row, ones i find distinct, you may not notice their differences either. I mean I can look at my list and know that Nightwish are distinctly the band influenced by film scores, esp. Hans Zimmer. WT are the heavy Kate Bush model specifically going for a more bluntly feminine approach. They both bring in a number of Celtic and Norse folk instrumentation into a lot of their other songs. What they generally share is a mezzo soprano vocal range and incorporate symphonic elements, and for me, my favorite sound right now is metal guitars mixed with orchestration and bombastic choruses. Evanescence are to these bands what the Vines were to Nirvana. Nothing. Specifically a third rate Lacuna Coil. with rapping. shitty rapping.

And on the other hand, I see most North American female indie singers as all sounding the same, timid, plucking on guitars with little confidence, emotion buried under twee cutesiness. Ditto for a lot of the male baroque pop coming out lately.

Matt, this is more my inspiration of crank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoSSUBqBi6k

Besides, you're one to talk, giving a sigh of angry exasperation to around 60% of the films Kurt and Andrew mention 😛

rot, I have nothing new to say to you. To me you're just making more naive unrealistic assertions, and you're not exactly giving me much reference to what you're plopping down towards musicians each year vs. movie folk, etc, which puts it in my head right or wrong that you're spinning an unbalanced distribution of your dollar. Which maybe fuels some of the crank towards you. And I still think either way your attitude takes the work these people do for granted.

Goon
Guest

"but as with many things in this life, some things are solely mine and some are solely yours."

Yeah, whatever. Even though I'm into a lot of most genres, I hold strongly to a lot of metal stuff, because I grew up with it, and if you're a Slayer fan once it never goes away.

I explain a lot of the reasons I like metal as I would a genre movie or game.

I look at WoW and I think it looks like the nerdiest stupidest waste of time ever, with ridiculous stupid looking characters. But I fill that nerdy void with power metal, dressing like vikings, singing of glory and flying towards Valhalla on a chariot of fire. Doug Nagy gets it.

I don't like a lot of horror movies (though I did just watch REC and liked it a lot), not my thing. But I fill that bloody void with black and death metal, the sounds of people singing about killing a thousand different ways, world destruction, and all that crap.

And I like it somewhere both between irony and earnestness. I can really get into it and accept it on its own terms as some escapism, but I never buy into it as any 'yeah he's right fuck the world' type seriousness, and can laugh at its goofy elements the same way I laugh at Sam Raimi's style of horror. It's fun, it's different.

And then there are metal bands I make absolutely no apologies for on any level. Iron Maiden are sacred to me as Queen. Go ahead dig up the goofy pictures of either of them, I don't give a fuck. Sacred shit 😛

Dave
Guest

Alright, goon, I'm only going to say this once:

Please, for just one day, calm the fuck down. No one is going to take your toys away from you.

Goon
Guest

Don't mistake a passionate defense/explanation of it for anger. Perfectly calm, I dont know where you're getting this impression from. I got called a skid every day by the Better than Ezra preps every day for 3 years in high school, even if I had the same Smashing Pumpkins and R.E.M. records, I'm plenty used to it.

Have any of you besides Marina seen "Metal: A Headbangers Journey" or "Global Metal" ?

Dave
Guest

I got that impression from the defensive, almost whiny, stance you took and the fact you dragged World of Warcraft into the mix, a game you know I played. I didn't ever say you were wasting your time listening to goth metal so I kind of resented the notion that I wasted time doing something I enjoyed. It was a deliberate poke.

Goon
Guest

"stance you took and the fact you dragged World of Warcraft into the mix, a game you know I played… It was a deliberate poke."

I know you play it, but no poke intended, no more than an attack on Twilight is a poke at Marina or Andrea or about a dozen girls I know. It was a springboard into explaining my love of the nerdiest depths of metal and nothing more.

Dave
Guest

Goddamit I put these spike lined gloves on for a reason and I *intend* to use them!

Dave
Guest

I really need to switch to a meaner looking Gravatar. Good think you can't gift people new ones; I would have had so many goatses. 🙂

Goon
Guest

I think we should all just give up the angriness and orgify together on the one thing we can all agree on:

http://www.cracked.com/article_17163_one-company-

Goon
Guest

A smiley face making angry or upset posts makes those posts look angrier/more upset.

Having no avatar doesn't help me much. For me picking an avatar is as hard as picking a tattoo design to stick to. There's nothing I feel like committing to. Someone should pick one for me, if its mean but still funny I'd take it.

Dave
Guest

If Gravatars supported animated gifs I think your decision would be easier, no?

Dave
Guest

Here, I offer this as a concession. A behind the scenes look at one of the most underrated films of our generation: Left Behind.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bm7CPXGOOu0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bm7CPXGOOu0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Even Christians know a movie ain't good til shit gets blown up.

Goon
Guest

I saw Left Behind… IN THE THEATER. GF and I went at the earliest show possible so we could mock it in peace, but there were still people there. Unfortunately it was not as bad as we could have hoped. The Christian movie with Mr. T on the other hand, or Bibleman, or this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0461592/

Good times. It's a bit sad I knew exactly where to go to for Christian movies and media back in the day, but my religious grandparents were sending me copies of Breakaway (and Brio for my sister), and VHS tapes of McGee and Me, lots of Christian shows, well into my late teens. Ironically, that magazine introduced me to a couple Christian death metal bands that were pretty good – Believer, who funny enough, along with Cynic and Atheist, made the trinity of top prog metal acts of the time 😛 – I like how things like that work out.

Matt Gamble
Guest

If you are going to invoke Hicks, you really should claim this as your source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdKpR9qNtg

Besides, you’re one to talk, giving a sigh of angry exasperation to around 60% of the films Kurt and Andrew mention

Oh sure, like its my fault they like shitty movies.

"This movie sure does look good on my iPod! It's as good as watching it on my TV"

"Transporter 3 is like Ronin!"

"Man, do I ever hate Do the Right Thing because of those dumb camera angles. Dumb. Dumb. DUMB!"

God I hate you Drew.

Iron Maiden are sacred to me as Queen. Go ahead dig up the goofy pictures of either of them, I don’t give a fuck. Sacred shit

You ever read this Goon? I know you like Alex Robinson and he's friends with Dawson. They also have their own podcast which rarely talks about comics yet is populated with Indie comic creators. Its awesome. Check both out and be sure to tell them I sent you since those two jerks never send anyone my way. I want to rub their noses in it. 😉

Matt Gamble
Guest

Perfectly calm,

I'm calmer then you are dude.

Goon
Guest

"If you are going to invoke Hicks, you really should claim this as your source."

I thought that was a bit obvious 😛 – its the go-to Hicks clip. Funny enough, it was the very first video I ever downloaded off the internet to keep. good old RealPlayer.

"Oh sure, like its my fault they like shitty movies."

Collateral is awesome

"You ever read this Goon?"

I haven't. Most of my comic knowledge comes from my roommate/adopted brother. We have an arrangement, he borrows my CDs, and I borrow his comics.

"I’m calmer then you are dude."

I was hoping for that response. Thanks.

Goon
Guest

"“This movie sure does look good on my iPod! It’s as good as watching it on my TV”"

I actually dont think that was such a big deal, he was arguing that the movie was entertaining and looked fine from the context of how he watched it, I didnt see it as some grand statement of how it would work otherwise. A lot of shitty effects DO actually look better on a smaller. The weird Rock Scorpion from Mummy 2 was better on TV, that's for sure.

I have audiophile friends who would scoff at anyone using anything less than 192 kbps mp3s, or mp3s at all. For them if you're not using vinyl on a thousand dollar system, you're spitting on music.

Goon
Guest

Forgive me for thinking that was a comic. I've had 3 glasses of Zinfandel in the last 45 minutes and didnt properly examine the link.

Dave
Guest

" Breakaway (and Brio for my sister)"

Ah, the Dobson indoctrination. . .sounds a like a fucking Ludlum novel.

Marina Antunes
Admin

Alright! An audio version of Netflix – I give you Zune Pass. The greatest thing for music lovers EVER – if you live in the US.

From the website:

"Zune Pass is the ultimate music subscription service. For just $14.99 a month, you can download as much music as you like, enjoy full-length streaming of millions of songs from the Zune Marketplace, and choose 10 MP3s every month to keep forever"

This may well die when Microsoft's ZUNE dies (and it likely will – sadly) but from what I can see (and I've never used the service since I'm not in the US) and have heard, it's pretty much what one would want from this sort of subscription service.

Sadly, in addition to being limited to the US, it's also only available on the Zune device and Apple has pretty much cornered the market on mp3 players. I love my Zune. If Microsoft had released info on their HD players, I would have waited rather than upgraded to a spiffy iTouch (of which I only use the twitter app, music and video players). For this service to survive, it'll have to be expanded beyond the Microsoft brand – I just hope someone steps up and makes that happen.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Forgive me for thinking that was a comic. I’ve had 3 glasses of Zinfandel in the last 45 minutes and didnt properly examine the link.

It is a comic. Drink three more and maybe you'll realize it. 😉

I actually dont think that was such a big deal, he was arguing that the movie was entertaining and looked fine from the context of how he watched it

Don't encourage him.

Goon
Guest

"It is a comic. Drink three more and maybe you’ll realize it."

Done and done.

I heard Lawrence of Arabia is better on a 2 inch screen. Andrew, confirm/deny?

Goon
Guest

Marina, I also currently have a Zune. It was the best deal I could get and I love the screen size and interface. I previously had an old school Creative Zen and was quite pleased with it as well. If Zune dies I'd probably go back to them, no problems with it and it lasted forever.

Goon
Guest

One of the few things I still remember about Left Behind is they tried to pass the Skywalk over by Union Station in Toronto as either an airport or the UN, or both. Either way it was pretty sad.

Goon
Guest

The guy who played Nicolae Carpathia in the movie was honestly, pretty fucking awesome.

McGee and Me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7JP1pTIox4

I've seen more episodes of McGee and Me than I have of GI Joe.

Goon
Guest

HOLY SHIT I FOUND IT

Do I have a treat for you

This woman from Canada named Maralee Dawn had this christian ventriloquist show full of really creepy puppets, and it was on every Saturday morning here, and I got up each time to watch it because it was so creepy and hilarious, i mean this show is a template for what Tim and Eric are doing.

I demand you watch the start of this video and tell me what is wrong with her Bible. I should send this to Everything is Terrible

<center><object width="320" height="265"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-0EGjQ8y4So&hl=en&fs=1&&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="265"></embed></object></center>

Kurt
Guest

^^^^^^^Awesomeness like this can only happen by earnestness and accident! I wish there were more puppets though! That little girl puppet is indeed a devil-child.

Thanks for that, Goon.

Dave
Guest

Damn, goon, your country produced nightmare fodder like that and yet it also produced Cynthia Kereluk, the center on the All-Star team that got me through adolescence. Canadian media is like a drug that tears my soul apart yet I can't quit it to save my life.

Also, Janaya Stephens (from the imdb link above) did an episode of Lexx the same year she did Left Behind. Doesn't that damn her to purgatory or something?

Goon
Guest

"I wish there were more puppets though!"

http://maraleedawn.com/index.htm

theres like a dozen puppets. scroll above the top navigation. Of all the stupid shit on the show, one of my favorites is the android that powers the magic wardrobe, because apparently sci fi plus magic equals new wig.

Goon
Guest

What the fuck is wrong with people – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLq8zdohJ8

I had no idea who Cynthia Kereluk was until this moment. Around where I grew up the fitness chick of choice was Kiana Tom.

Dave
Guest

Well, to be fair I am about 8 years older, and while Kiana Tom was around in my day, I preferred the polite sexiness of Miss Canada 1984. When she got kicked of Lifetime Network she was never seen in the States again. *grump*

Dave
Guest

Come on, you know that someone purchased that video at some point and still thinks it's "precious." The lonely, squirly female equivalent of Reed Farrington, if such a creature exists.

Speaking of which, James and I are on R3's *favorite* social media site, Twitter, arguing over the merits of Reed actually socializing with a woman, as in dating. I think it would be Epic and he thinks I should stop picking on the man. I'm not picking on him anymore than Jay or Greg do, and honestly I would be fascinated by for more antropological reasons than unintentional comedy. Not to mention he would probably be more tolerable if he, you know, had some steady companionship.

Thus far Sean has not weighed in, and he's the most diplomatic dude I know!

rot
Guest

@Goon

"To me you’re just making more naive unrealistic assertions, and you’re not exactly giving me much reference to what you’re plopping down towards musicians each year vs. movie folk, etc, which puts it in my head right or wrong that you’re spinning an unbalanced distribution of your dollar."

I don't know how many more different ways I can say this, the riches of the music industry that exist now will cease, if you think that is unrealistic, than I am not sure what statistics you have to back that up, I would be interested to see them. I have said repeatedly the music industry will cease to be AS LUCRATIVE as it once was (let me know where the unrealistic part comes in) because of an oversaturation of the market of people willing to give their music away for free or pay-what-you-can.

I assume we agree on this point… yes?

My next point is if human ingenuity has taught us anything people find ways to monetize anything, and as the old business model falls, a new patronage will occur, possibly with new technologies to suit it (I would say twitter is easily one of these technologies for the reasons I laid out before)

now I gave the following examples of this world where fans deal directly with the artists:

"Bands with their own websites with ads on them, with paypal donations, with live gigs, with incentives for buying their ‘albums’, their paraphenialia. People with the means will pay for things they love, that will never stop, it will be a more intimate business model, like cottage industries, Girl Talk will tweet asking for donations, and because people love what he does, enough people will pay…"

I would add to this the incentive of having different versions of songs behind a pay wall on their site, likewise, having an opportunity to talk directly with the artist in this pay area, or be exposed to things they deem worth the price of admission.

The pay-what-you-can will have SOME people paying (remember I said it would cease to be AS LUCRATIVE?) and so this in addition to all of the added monetized aspects that can be garnered from an artist dealing directly with the public (subtracting the music exec expenses from this equation) and I do not see how it unreasonable, naive, ridiculous that those who garner attention, who are by MERIT attracting the attention of a wide spectrum of people, cannot make a decent living, and those who are not so well-liked, they will continue the day job existence they would otherwise… the only difference I see is the one's being pimped by execs with no talent that we are supposed to buy because of false exposure, those people will die off, and good riddance.

rot
Guest

after all that and to answer your question from the original quote, what does it matter what I pay for the music I have? If this is your argument, I don't know who you are arguing with. I never said things were going to stay the same, with musicians owning yachts and get rich or die tryin', show me where I said that was going to happen.

I said money will be lost, jobs will be lost, and that this is as natural an occurrence as newspapers going under.

but to answer your question, I paid $20 for Girl Talk's Night Ripper, and $8 for Feed the Animals, $15 for In Rainbows, I bought four cds in the last two months, and I have downloaded probably five songs if that from the internet in that same time. Tell me what that means, how that is some kind of argument there to be made?

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

On too much choice. In the things I like (food, music, movie) I really, really love the amazing amount of choice.

In the things I do not like to do (Insurance, Company Benefits for instance) I prefer more of the bundled menus, although simple breakdowns would be nice.

I don't have the fear or uncertainty when boggled with large amounts of choice, I tend to enjoy sampling lots of things. I don't have loads of brand loyalty (Although Gibsons Rye Whiskey has my business for life. Damn. That's. Good.) and I certainly do not sweat making decisions about products or services. Frankly, I do not understand folks that want less choice. I concede that elegance, efficiency, and quality are desired, but I'll take choice over tradition.

Dave
Guest

The problem is that when there is too much choice, people have harder times deciding what to choose. Even when they have chosen something, with so many other products and so little money to go around the masses, they might feel they've chosen poorly (buyer's remorse).

Kurt, you picked three creative industries in which you said you admired a large variety. Studies on how overwhelming choice tends to negatively affect the mind focus on basic materials such as groceries. There are not so subtle distinctions between having to choose what entertains or enlightens you and what nourishes your physical body.

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