Cinecast Episode 125 – Cultural Collateral

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Episode 124:
Somehow both Kurt and Andrew managed to miss out on Will Farrel running from dinosaurs as well as the Vegas tomfoolery in The Hangover. Instead we watched a bunch of subversive, exploitative and downright nasty cinema on DVD – that includes Twilight. New is overrated. Oh, and three cheers to Don Bluth.
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COVERED IN TODAY’S SHOW:
Surveillance

Surveillance

Irreversible
– violence in film

Irreversible

Secret of NIMH

PunishmentPark

English Surgeon

EnglishSurgeon

Punishment Park

PunishmentPark

Twilight

Twilight

Sunset Blvd.

Sunset

Smiley Face

Smiley_Face

DVD picks:
Nicotina
Nobel Son/Crossing Over

Blu-Ray picks:
Predator 2
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

The Crossing Over poster:
http://www.rowthree.com/2009/02/03/crossing-over-poster/

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Goon
Guest

I immediately feel bad for whoever watched Twilight. Unwatchable garbage.

Marina Antunes
Admin

Alright; So I *have* to find some free wifi at lunch to listen. I never expected to see the day when "Twilight" would be discussed on the Cinecast.

And yes, I'm ignoring Goon's comment.

BTW – You just had to go and pick one of the bad fanmade posters. Tsk Tsk

rot
Guest

Julia Ormond hasn't been in anything like Surveillance, um… INLAND EMPIRE perhaps.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Wasn't she a glorified cameo, like Naomi Watts in IE? I don't recall her there.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

@Marina. I know this is a loaded conversation considering you do a TWILIGHT podcast (!), but doesn't most of the marketing materials look the same? As in Awful.

I can crap on the Harry Potter franchise all day, but you can definitely see that there is more loving care put into Rowling-ville than the Meyer-verse.

Also, you'll be cringing. The criticism of Twilight is alas, not very constructive, as I couldn't get a grip on where to even begin!

rot
Guest

No she is a character, she has three scenes if I remember correctly, and plays an important part of the "plot".

Naomi Watts? wasn't she the disembodied voice coming out of Julia Ormond?

swarez
Guest

I picked up Surveillance in Berlin on DVD. I quite liked it but I figured out the twist because of the delivery of one word. French Stewart was a pleasant surprise.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Is Ormond leading the 'Locomotion' girls?

Kalebarkab
Guest

I want to find good pop music. Help me please.

rot
Guest

wow Kurt you need to rewatch INLAND EMPIRE. I don't want to give much away, but she has a screwdriver sticking out of her abdomen… is that forgettable to you?

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Admittedly I have only seen the film once, and that was theatrically with a lot of other details washing over me. And Ormond can be a hard one to recognize in Lynch landscapes….

And Watt's was one of the rabbits. I think her Mulholland Dr. co-star, Laura Harring was also a voice-cameo IE, but I can't be sure without an IMDb visit.

rot
Guest

I am almost positive Watts is also the voice of Ormond's character in the interrogation room. I notice IMDB is not crediting her for that, but I have seen the film three times and the last time I really noticed it.

Kurt you need to revisit this film and take in the splendor of the special features, some of the best stuff is on it. Lynch's story while making quinoa is awesome, and there is a very long deleted scene of the prostitute character who is watching on the tv, and it is incredible. The actress is Karolina Gruszka and it appears she hasn't made any more english-speaking films since INLAND, which is a shame because in this deleted scene she shows something that is utterly captivating and I wish I could see more of her.

Marina Antunes
Admin

Kurt – Re Marketing – One of my major peeves about Twilight is the marketing materials. Too airbrushed, too unnatural and for me, they don't capture the feel of the books, story or movie.

Goon
Guest

In the Rifftrax shredding of Twilight, the highlight is a running joke. There are so many blank stares of longing and awkward pauses where there should be dialogue, and they just keep saying "Line?" throughout. So true.

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – There are a lot of moments of "longing" and "awkwardness" and some are much worse than others but no more than in other teen romances (and the acting for the most part *is* better). I think the reason Twilight is picked on so much more than others is that there is such a large fanbase, one comprised mostly of young women. It's the same as "fanboys" – they're willing to overlook the problems because they have so much love for characters/story. But we're not all blind followers. I love the world, I love the movie (even with all its flaws) but I'll be the first to admit none of it is perfect but it's also not without its merits.

Goon
Guest

I can understand there are some people that will pick on X (usually to me that X being Sex in the City) because their wives and girlfriends are into it, but I'm sorry, by any objective definition of filmmaking this is bad work. I mean if you're tempted to compare it to some bad fanboy sci fi or comic book movie, this thing filmmaking wise is on par with your Elektra's and Catwoman's. It doesn't even meet Fantastic Four levels of production values, acting, cinematography, or story.

Maybe if you've read the books you can fill in the blanks that the movie leaves out on screen, you've already given them the ball to run with, and maybe its smart to give it some support so you can get the other movies and hopefully get something better out of those, but this is one movie where to me the apologists are beyond wrong, they're delusional.

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – and objectively I can't pretend I didn't read it. In my original review I brought up that fact – there's enough here for fans but I found myself returning to the book to fill in the blanks – it was lacking the development of the characters enough to sell non-fans. Is it brilliant? No but it's *way* better than Elektra (which is the only of the two you mention that I've seen). And I'm not an apologist or delusional – I will happily agree it's not great but I refuse to apologize for liking the movie because it does have merits.

And I don't agree that it has nothing going for it: the cinematography is great, the acting which is mostly lacking from Pattinson, is generally good and the story (for me at least) works.

rot
Guest

@Marina

so true, fanboys laugh at fangirls not fully acknowledging the same level of unabashed pandering involved in both spheres. I thought Twilight was watchable but something alien to my personal tastes… truth be told I found it more watchable than Iron Man.

Goon
Guest

By the way, what the hell is the actual story of this series? Please feel free to spoil the other books, because well, very little to nothing happens in this movie. Everything that comes remotely close to action is shoehorned in and tangential to anything else.

There's no chemistry between any of these actors, and I cant blame them with that hamfisted straightforward dialogue.

You know how Dug the dog thinks the most blunt stupid thoughts in UP? That's how these characters talk. And when they get on anything poetic, its like a dime store romance novel. I googled 'twilight quotes' and found this one, which is from the second book

"Before you, Bella, my life was like a moonless night. Very dark, but there were stars, points of light and reason. ….And then you shot across my sky like a meteor. Suddenly everything was on fire; there was brilliancy, there was beauty. When you were gone, when the meteor had fallen over the horizon, everything went black. Nothing had changed, but my eyes were blinded by the light. I couldn’t see the stars anymore. And there was no more reason for anything."

This is too cheesy even for Ron Howard.

Marina Antunes
Admin

On the story – In my opinion Twilight the movie suffered from trying to focus on the action. The story of the books are much more about the relationship between Bella and Edward – the romance.

I have yet to find a fan who will wholeheartedly admit that Meyer's writing is great but she weaves a great yarn and, speaking for myself, after "Twilight" I needed to know where the relationship was going. The later books do have a little more action but in general, they're a teenage girl's (and occasionally boy's) thoughts.

If you want more, the Wiki can spoil it for you.

rot
Guest

On the topic of 80's animation that were scary for kids, for me the big one is The Last Unicorn, that and Dark Crystal. But Last Unicorn in particular, I can't even remember fully what freaked me out, but it did.

rot
Guest

granted Dark Crystal is not animation but was for kids.

Goon
Guest

"I found myself returning to the book to fill in the blanks – it was lacking the development of the characters enough to sell non-fans"

As Kurt says on the podcast, that makes it a 'fan film' – which doesnt bother me all that much, I mean much of the same can be said of Watchmen, but I feel there's a lot more to feel justified liking in Watchmen, from the story to the characters, to specific performances and cinematography and sequences, that even a non-fan can look at and say were well done. There's nothing of the sort in Twilight, and as Kurt brought up on the show, I told him when we met up that the production values and effects were even bad, on par with Angel or Sliders.

You say it focuses too much on the action, but the moments with the characters was even worse. I mean there were all these spaces and pauses for actual dialogue and development, you could make a short film in the time wasted with awkward stare shots and forlorn gazes.

I maintain this film is without merit, and stand by my diss of it on par with Elektra or Catwoman. And there are no fanboys running to the aid of either of those abominations. The closest thing to merit is the directors ATTEMPT at cinematography and mood and Stewarts ATTEMPT to bring more life out of a lifeless character who has nothing to say.

As it is, for someone like me watching the film, there is no justified basis of that character hanging with Edward, no evidence of this "perfect man" crap the ladies throw about him. He's a creepy stalkerish character that drops garbage out her blood so awkwardly that a sane person would get the fuck out there. If there's any reason to relate to Bella or love Edward for a fan, its coming from the book, its not coming from the movie. From the movie you're getting a really really really really really dumb girl just asking to die.

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – you're seriously going to compare Watchmen to Twilight? They're not even in the same ballfield! You can think what you like about Twilight but I disagree that it's a complete waste. Fine it doesn't work for you but you're also not in the demographic and this marketing machine is clearly targeting its massive audience and little else.

And perhaps I didn't make myself clear but the movie fails in part because it concentrates on the action when it should be more focused on the relationship. I could have forgone the action all together to get more time with the characters and the moments which you feel are markers of the writer not coming up with anything appropriate for the characters to say and which I think add to the whole feeling of teenage/first love/angst/confusion.

Marina Antunes
Admin

And I think it's fine for people to criticize the movie. Discussion is part of the fun!

Goon
Guest

In the end for better or worse theres no justification for the actual MOVIE to have reached the level of fandom it has, and this is where my gripes come from. It feels so much like the fans feel some obligation to like it and support it and vote it for MTV's best picture – despite such a vast amount of the fans admitting the movie wasn't very good or at least a disappointment compared to the books.

It's like Bart Simpson feeling he has to own every piece of Krusty the Klown merchandise, including an eye wash that burns your eyes, and a home pregnancy test 😛

Goon
Guest

One other thing, if nobody heard the end of the last Filmrot podcast where Dave teases Andrea bout Twiglight, its a must listen.

I mean it seems like to a lot of fans, its okay for THEM to trash what doesnt work or what they didnt like, but when a non-fan comes in and starts pointing fingers, they circle the wagons around this franchise and get very very very very angry. Comic nerds do this too, but I havent seen it come to such anger as it does with Twilight.

rot
Guest

I saw Twilight on blu-ray at a family get together and I thought the cinematography was fine albeit shiny, and the score is good albeit ripping off the Fountain, and I thought there was chemistry between Bella and Edward (sometimes saying less is a virtue) and I can see how they are attractive to a teen audience. Everything is heightened and simplistic to go with a teen sense of monumentality to everything (I certainly remember what that feels like) and God, you want to talk about dialogue, perhaps I should start quoting Star Wars, I mean there is a similar affection among fanboys for Star Wars as fangirls with Twilight and neither are rewarding solely on their dialogue. They both appeal to this heightened monumentality… heroism or eroticism as funneled through a teen mentality.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Last Unicorn and NIMH are both excellent in the voice talent. Unicorn is piled high with Oscar winners and nominees. oi!

And yea, The Dark Crystal is pretty swell. I like 'dark muppets!'

Goon
Guest

I like and appreciate Star Wars but I don't have any particular apologist affection towards any of the films, which is probably why the prequels never offended me as much as it did to the hardcores.

I brought up Watchmen because you had brought up some of the fanboy stuff, and again, only as an example of how being attached to a book can fill in the blanks. Watchmen is the only one of these fanboy films closely attached to a book, ergo… I feel justified.

"you’re also not in the demographic"

This is the ultimate cop out, and moot considering there are people of all ages reading these books. Unless you want to forfeit the right to have an opinion on any bloody action movie or sex comedy full of boobs. If you count as part of the demographic at all, then I can get my gf in here to trash it and say the same points. She probably hated it even more than I did.

It doesnt bother me if you liked it, especially if the book helped that. What does bother me if you're going to be mad at someone who is viewing the film without reading the book, who walks away confused about what makes someone buy into these characters. Who says they cant fathom the relationship, when you yourself admit the movie wasnt focused enough on the relationship.

And beyond that I think its a spectacular technical failure of plotting, pacing and production values.

So again I return to what I said about fans circling the wagons, admitting mistakes or failures that you yourself know will only be amplified for those who havent read the book… and getting mad anyways!

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

@Goon: "…It feels so much like the fans feel some obligation to like it and support it and vote it for MTV’s best picture – despite such a vast amount of the fans admitting the movie wasn’t very good or at least a disappointment…"

Guy version of this – Transformers. Easily exactly the same problems all around. Except, well the nonsensical-garbled-metal CGI is better composited…

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

I was bringing up Harry Potter at one point but forgot to make my key point. Both of these franchises moved beyond their 'youth' demographic into the mainstream success, lots of adults were reading them on their own, of both genders.

In both cases, the books may stimulate the desire to watch the movie vision, but I can tell you as a non-reader of both of these series, that the movies MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT make you want to sit through the books.

On the other hand, Revolutionary Road, I didn't capital "L" love as a film, but it made me want to read the book (which I will at some point). Let the Right One in made me want to read the book after seeing the film (which I did), and Watchmen (the film) made me want to read the book (which I also did).

rot
Guest

fine but a niche film or book does not need to appeal to outsiders of its demographic, that doesn't make something a better film or book. If Drag Me To Hell (which I have not seen) tried to appeal to outsiders and compromised what it wanted to do, you and many others would be berating it for doing so… why should Twilight similarly compromise?

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

I am not taking Twilight to task for not catering to outsiders of youth-girl fiction. I am shitting on the film for being a shoddily constructed movie, dead of emotion, truth, artistic merit, entertainment, or even storytelling that happens to be shot reasonably well in the American North West. So yea, it has a good location going for it. But very little else. It's an easy movie to pick on, but hey, I'm happy Catherine Harwick can go onto other things. Let the American Pie guy have a kick at the can for chapter 2. But (and I'm not comparing Chris Weisz to Alfonso Cuaron), if Cuaron couldn't inject much of much into Harry Potter 3, then I'm feeling that the Twilight movies will likely get worse over better.

Marina Antunes
Admin

But I'm not mad! On the contrary – I'm thrilled at the opportunity to discuss Twilight with someone who appreciates film! And I don't think that the demographic bit is a copout at all. The same can be argued for something like Transformers but giant robots are cool to a wide variety of people and ages whereas sparkly vampires have limited appeal (I think!).

I can see your point though: a good film (adaptation or otherwise) should be able to stand on it's own (and I agree) and Twilight the movie, on its own, doesn't do that and I don't think any fan with any love for film will argue otherwise. For me it's the entire universe that works and the movie is a nice (if imperfect) addition to that.

Goon
Guest

"why should Twilight similarly compromise?"

I'm not asking for anything to compromise – I can recognize when something just isnt for me, which is one reason I brought up Sex in the City. But theres a difference between something that isnt for you, and something that is just terribly made.

Lets say I only watch chick flicks and you only watch indie movies. I watch Gigantic and think it sucks. You tell me that since Gigantic isn't my thing, my opinion that its not good lacks merit. That's what I seem to be hearing.

Just because something is a chick flick doesnt mean it has to be bad. I'd make the case that The Cutting Edge is a hell of a chick flick 🙂 , it has all those same cliches – the two people who hate each other who learn to accept each other and fall in love. Its happening again in that new Sandra Bullock movie. But you can do those cliches and still make something entertaining, that has good performances for that medium.

I'm saying that for its medium, I still think Twilight is a failure, and that even a great deal of Twilight fans seem to acknowledge it, and like Campea listing off a zillion beefs with Transformers and calling it the best movie of the summer anyways, I point to that and say "So what's the problem with me saying the same things and hating it instead of loving it?"

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Kurt – I'm unsure of Weisz. I haven't seen The Golden Compass and I would have been happier to see Hardwick stick around for #2 but the teaser trailer for the second suggests better things (I hope!).

<center>THE TWILIGHT SAGA: NEW MOON trailer in HD<object width="425px" height="360px" ><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent"/><param name="movie" value="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=58185785,t=1,mt=video"/><embed src="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=58185785,t=1,mt=video&quot; width="425" height="360" allowFullScreen="true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed></object></center>

Leeny
Guest

I will watch the twillight sequels (although I'm not marking the days off on a calander like some film people we know). I will not watch transformers2 or watchman2 (if there was a sequel), I may not even watch ironman2.

Bad as twillight may be, I am still interested.

Marina Antunes
Admin

I *swear* to you Leeny, I'm not counting the days! Not yet at least! 😉

Goon
Guest

The turnaround on that second Twilight movie doesnt give me any hope.

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – Summit has decided to give each movie a different director because of the tight turnaround. They're going to start production on #3 while #2 is still in post. Got to get them all in before the fans move along to the next thing I guess (plus there's the whole Vampires don't age thing to consider).

Leeny
Guest

Wasn't this film a bit of a risk for the studio. Making a film to target 13 year old girls. Maybe they didn't produce the best film, thinking on just throwing out a relatively cheap film to see what happened.

Maybe the next film will be markably improved.

Matt Gamble
Guest

The first line in that trailer makes me vomit in my mouth.

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Matt – Oh Matt! But it's my birthday! You won't kiss me? LOL ;P

Matt Gamble
Guest

Predator 2 is freaking awesome. I might even take it over the original, which is saying something, as I love the original.

Goon
Guest

Watched thirty seconds of the trailer – quick judgment, looks better, acting still looks as stagey.

Watch out Transformers 2: this movie has a guy being thrown into a piano!

😀 😀 😀 😀

Goon
Guest

Kurt – I didnt even recognize Peter Facinelli. I enjoyed him in the Big Kahuna, and actually even like him as the bully figure in that teen movie Can't Hardly Wait.

Goon
Guest

I particularly felt during Twilight that the male characters, especially Edward, weren't written very well. He certainly came across more like some stereotypical "What Women Want" caricature of a romantic man than a real dude. Edward doesnt say all the right or realistic things so much as he says all the flowery things a stereotypical girl with a hope chest may WANT to hear. And yet he's also doing them so creepily mixed in with talk about her blood all the time.

Is that the appeal? Is that mix of him being a romantic cheeseball but also being a de facto rebel via vampire status, what makes him the perfect guy? It certainly explains why guys see him as a total puss who as Devin from CHUD says and Kurt also said, needs a punch in the face. I don't think dudes want to see a vampire without any bite (metaphorically speaking).

I know there are a lot of male directors/writers who have been called out for not writing women very well.

I guess to Marina I'd ask if that is something she encounters frequently from most films, and could understand then how men would find that Edward character as so detestable?

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – that exact point was one of the reasons Shannon and I started the Twilight podcast. The books are all from Bella's perspective and we only see Edward through her eyes and yes, he is portrayed as the "perfect" man but he's not perfect – at least not when you dig beyond the surface and that comes across better in the later books. He makes mistakes, he takes the relationship for granted, he's immature, he thinks he knows it all, he's over protective – there are all these things swimming under the perfect visage but yes, I think one of the major appeals is the fact that he's this "perfect mate" with an edge (very PG edge) of danger.

The female characters in the book are much better written than they are in the movie. We pretty much only meet Bella in the movie whereas the book develops Alice, Rosalie and Esmee a whole lot more and they're all smart strong women. Kristen Steward does a good job of giving Bella some ferocity that I didn't find in the book the first time I read it. The second movie will be interesting for me because it's my least favourite of the books and the one where Bella is pretty much a damsel in distress. Edward leaves and she basically falls apart which I have serious issues with.

Are the women here better written? Not really. It's nice to have a story told almost exclusively from a female perspective but she's a teenager with limited life experience and she's unsure of herself. She does grow through each novel but as we discussed on one of our last shows, so does Edward (though not as apparent). Pattinson is at a huge disadvantage because outside of a few chapters of Midnight Sun (Twilight from Edward's perspective – oh yeah, they're milking it all), the character's actions and whatever he reads between the lines, he's going into this blind and it's pretty apparent in the movie. I will say this – he gives the character a tinge of brooding darkness that isn't in the book.

Goon
Guest

So are they written from Bella's perspective in the first person? As In "I went to meet with Edward and we did some gay vampire stuff?"

Because I could see that switch from a first persons perspective to what looks like an objective narrative to be a disadvantage, explains the use of narration to the movie and why it seemed so clumsily tacked on.

Goon
Guest

Edward (in the movie) doesnt have any brooding intensity at all, he just seems like a doofus who makes brooding faces. The hair is so ultra stylized, the way they did the face and eye makeup, it just looks so phony, and adds so much to the 'punch-in-the-face' ness people felt about him. He looks like a pretentious Linkin Park fan who thinks he's brooding that scribbles in his notepad that he would like to burn the school down but really just cries in his bedroom. Definitely not like a cool rebel.

Were you into Anne Rice books when you were younger? In many ways this series just seems like a Generation Z (what letter are we on now?) update of a hole that needs to be filled for teenage girls.

Marina Antunes
Admin

Yes – Bella's perspective in first person. And yes, there are moments (more than one) when Pattinson is painful to watch.

Anne Rice – Oh Anne. I love Anne. I never liked Louis – such a whiny boy. Rice had some other stuff at work though – Lestat was and continues to be the ultimate badboy and through those novels he developed into a character in search of the meaning – in life, in death, in religion. I lost interest when the editors stopped doing their jobs and Rice just started to ramble on for hundreds of pages about nothing. But yes – this could be seen as a PG version for a new generation. I wouldn't put them in the same category though – Rice is a better writer.

That said – Rice DID write EXCELLENT female characters. The females in "Lives of the Mayfair Witches" series are fantastic and from the Vampire series you've got Claudia, Pandora, Akasha, Maharet, Merrick (to a lesser extent) who are all well developed, well written strong women.

Dave
Guest

"He makes mistakes, he takes the relationship for granted, he’s immature, he thinks he knows it all, he’s over protective"

Isn't he also supposed to be well beyond the years were adolescent males act like that? I mean, you brought up Claudia from the Lestat books and all I can think about is Kirsten Dunst in the movie looking at the grown woman lamenting, "I want to *be* her." So there's another thing Twilight as a whole fails at: what it's like to be really old in a really young body. Let The Right One In explored that aspect far better and was a much better vampire flick.

I understand that the two movies appeal to different people, so maybe we need to just throw out the vampire aspect when talking about Twilight. Expect you really can't, can you? If the bulk of Twilight talk centers around how it's "for teh tweens" then you have to bring in the vampire stuff because what other movie property is hitting that demo so hard right now? As far as I can tell The Jonas Bros movie bombed, which was sweet because it was the movie that bumped Coraline from many 3D theaters in the country. So there are other things out there but Twilight gets all the attention. Must be the vampires because, well, the idea of a dark and mysterious immortality appeals to a lot of women. But the most successful vampire stories, creatively imo, have an element of danger to them that can be just as appealing as the sexuality of immortal youth. Twilight, the movie at least, suffers from having little to no danger at all. Even the bad vampires in the movie serve little purpose other than to be a plot point in Edward and Bells'a relationship and prove to be no imminent threat to anyone.

So what we have now is a neutered and "safe" story about "vampires" for a generation of youngsters brought up to be afraid of everything. It skirts the edge of sensuality and ignores the demonic history of vampirism. It is exactly the kind of work I would expect to rise from a culture saturated in sex, told to suppress so many emotions, and lulled to sleep by the steady flow of monotonous white noise known as popular culture.

As far as Andrea and I sparring off on The Rotcast (thanks for the plug, goon), that was about 70% show and 30% us. Our positions on Twilight are real: she's a fan, I'm not. But the bickering we do is just, well, what we do. Wasn't a whole lot of "heat" after the show was done. Sorry if this ruins it for you, I just couldn't let Andrea live with being typecast as a "rabid Twilight apologist." To her credit, she refuses to see any Tranformers movie because they "look fucking retarded."

Marina Antunes
Admin

Breaking it down because there's a lot to take in there:

"Isn’t he also supposed to be well beyond the years were adolescent males act like that?"

In my opinion, I think Edward isn't past that because he's never given himself the chance to get past it. He's 100+ but he was "turned" at 18 and my reading and interpretation suggests that he's always been cloistered and not really the adventurous type. I never got the feeling that the character grew over those 100 years and in my discussion with Shannon I said that he seemed stunted at 17 to me (if anyone's interested in that discussion, it's here) which would explain his actions.

"so maybe we need to just throw out the vampire aspect when talking about Twilight"

I sort of agree and disagree. Yes, you could take the vampires out of Twilight and swap them for something else (a biker?) but it would lose some of the sexiness since over the years, the vampire has taken a bit of a transformation from bloodsucking dangerous creature of the night to sexy appealing creature, and with that comes a whole lot of mythology that I and older fans can't write off. This may not be as true for teens since they may not have that baggage. If you took out the vampire, you'd be left with a tortured teen romance (which I'd probably still enjoy because I like the subgenre).

And I haven't looked at all the dates but I have a feeling Twilight helped kick off this teen vampire frenzy that's currently cool. People read it and wanted more of the same so the publishers complied and now you've got a whole load of entries into the genre and some of the books/stories that were around before Twilight have gained new fans because of it. Soon enough the fans will move onto something else.

"Twilight, the movie at least, suffers from having little to no danger at all. Even the bad vampires in the movie serve little purpose other than to be a plot point in Edward and Bells’a relationship and prove to be no imminent threat to anyone."

Yes and YES but that's mostly the problem of the film because in the book there is a feeling of dread when they come up – this gets better in the later books (and I hope movies) with the introduction of the Volturi.

And I don't know Andrea but I already love her.

Kurt
Guest

Andrea gets points for declaring Transformers "look fucking retarded" That is absolutely true. Kudos.

But squanders all the good will by being a twilight fan.

Even Steven.

Goon
Guest

Kurt you seriously need to go through the back eps of Filmrot to listen to the Staircase discussion episode

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Mmmmmm, The Staircase. I'll always thank you very much for dropping that one in my lap, Goon.

Dave
Guest

Honestly, I can't even remember the episode where we talking about The Staircase. Lemme go look it up. . . .only thing I can find that even comes close is when I lectured James on the criminal justice system in Florida regarding Murder on a Sunday Morning.

http://blog.filmrot.com/james/film/the-rotcast-ep

I made it a point to not talk about The Staircase in depth because I didn't want to swim in it anymore than I already had. I think I said as much on one of our shows, but I don't remember which one. We taped our latest one tonight, and barely a Twilight fight in sight. 😉

Dave
Guest

@Marina Re: Being 17 "forever"

The reason I don't buy that is because getting older is just not about physical age. Someone who doesn't age physically would still "age" mentally from the shear acquisition of knowledge and experience. You can throw at me about the brain's development from adolescence to adulthood, but there are plenty of historical examples of kids "growing up early" due to environmental and economic factors. You might have an argument that Edward's brain is in a static state, what with him being dead and all, but both Claudia and Eli in Let The Right One In are great examples of how vampire "kids" age.

Edward is just the archetype dreamboat vamp that teen girls want to believe in, just as Angel on Buffy was. At least Angel could crack a good joke.

kurt
Guest

And the kid in Near Dark…

Goon
Guest

"oth Claudia and Eli in Let The Right One In are great examples of how vampire “kids” age."

Isnt this moot since the author of Twilight has never seen or read any vampire stuff before writing Twilight?

Matt Gamble
Guest

Isnt this moot since the author of Twilight has never seen or read any vampire stuff before writing Twilight?

Do people actually believe this?

Marina Antunes
Admin

On 17 forever – I totally understand that maturity and physical age don't go hand in hand – my argument was and is that even though he's 100, he hasn't matured passed 17 when it comes to relationships.

And no Matt, I don't believe everything I read.

Marina Antunes
Admin

And bugger – I still haven't seen The Staircase. I have some DVD's to trade in – hopefully the local shop I use has that one in stock.

Marina Antunes
Admin

I haven't watched "Irreversible" but listening to the discussion I was reminded of "The Free Will" and I'm surprise that it didn't come up in the discussion – difficult to watch and some may argue that it shouldn't even exist but something I had to rationalize when watching it was WHY the filmmaker had chosen to tell THIS particular story in THIS particular way (ultra realistic). My feeling then was that this is one of the reasons film is so important: it lets you peek and even experience something you may never experience otherwise and I think there is merit in that even if it IS difficult to watch – perhaps even more if it is hard to watch.

kurt
Guest

Good call Marina, I should have brought up THE FREE WILL, the same 'harsh viewing experience' was had in that film, but strangely you do tend to sympathize with the main character, you hope for him at least, even if he despises you. In Irreversible, there are no lines to attach to the characters, you are much less emotionally invested in the film, it is more dry, more 'Haneke' for lack of a better phrase. The Free Will is at least, a character study.

Goon
Guest

"Do people actually believe this?"

I've had around 7 fans and 4 haters tell me that both as a defense and as an attack, and never did the legwork to check for myself, mostly because I dont care. I assumed it was true because it would explain how something as stupid as the glistening in the sun could happen and how someone could manage to write vampire fiction with no danger/demon elements. I don't really care if its true or not.

Goon
Guest

From an interview with Meyer, found here:
http://www.reelzchannel.com/article/686/interview

"When asked if other vampire tales have influenced her work, Meyer seems almost embarrassed to admit that she hasn't read any. "See, here's the thing," she says while placing her hands on the table for emphasis. "I'm not a vampire person. Before I started writing about them, I'd never seen a vampire movie. I'd seen pieces of them, but I'd never been to a vampire movie. I've never read a book about vampires. I'm really not into horror, so I don't know the genre."

Marina Antunes
Admin

@Goon – Re: Meyer and the vampire fiction – it's possible she's never read any (she apparently grew up in a strict Mormon household though I don't need any practising Mormons telling that they're not all that sheltered – I know that – it may have just been by choice as well) vampire tales and frankly, it doesn't matter either way. If she was familiar with the mythology, she'd know she's going "against" it. I don't see how that matters one way or the other. She created her own version – I'm OK with that even if I don't agree with all her choices.

@Dave – I'm going to assume you haven't read the books but that's the sense I get from the limited history we get of Edward. And that's the problem – it's limited. The story is never about Edward and what he's experienced it's about Bella and what she's going through. I realize they're not mutually exclusive because the experience affects how he interacts with Bella but there's this sense that he has basically locked himself away for 100 years. What we make of Edward we do so from our own perspectives as readers. You bring up a great point that I'd never considered though and one that I very much *doubt* Meyer will ever approach even if she does finish Midnight Sun. It's not the story she wants to tell – the story she's telling is purely focused on the romance. I *wish* Rice had written a novel for Claudia's story – I would have loved to read that (though she does explore that idea with most of the other characters).

@Kurt – Not sure where THAT came from. WTF? And how kinky is Edward? I'd say pretty kinky if he's willing to put himself through so much bloody pain just to be with Bella – after all, the universe (books, movie) keep telling us that it would be so easy for him to loose control (and that's something that comes up a lot more in the books).

Dave
Guest

Goon, I've seen that same interview floating around for a while now, and the quote makes sense when you consider Meyers' pretty straight Mormon upbringing. However, I saw this nugget from the article:

"She also bears an unmistakable resemblance to the book's heroine, and to Kristen Stewart, who plays Bella in the movie."

Um, no. Maybe if you squint a little. . . .naaaaah!

Dave
Guest

"even though he’s 100, he hasn’t matured passed 17 when it comes to relationships."

Which still doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever. You can't live that long without encountering love if you are "living" the Cullen clan as Edward did. They might have been reclusive to an extent, but by no means were they in hiding all the time. Think of all the trials and turmoils someone locked in that age would experience over the decades. Global wars, massive technical advances, sweeping economic shifts and the rise and fall of ideologies. Imagine what tales someone forever young could tell us, a static mind constantly bombarded by dynamic forces.

Instead, what do we get with Edward Cullen?

"Oh fuck me, I wanna fuck so bad but your blood smells so good, fuuuuuuuuuuuuck!"

Kurt
Guest

Is Bella Menstruating ever addressed in the books? You know, how lions and various other wild animals attack women durning their cycle.

How Kinky is Edward?

Goon
Guest

If its about Bella and what she's going through, and that includes her relationship with Edward, then you can't write off questions of authenticity of Edward's character. If he's and 'old' vampire and not a freshly turned one then questions about what this Pedo-pire sees in the young girl and why this guy acts as immature as she does, are relevant.

I'm not demanding Edward be ultra-smart (see Man From Earth and the segment about him forgetting where he was 10 years ago, etc) but its fair to think he should be more sophisticated. None of those vampires came across as older beyond their years. They're almost like the kids in that fucking Covenant movie from 2006

Goon
Guest

lol, I love you Internet:

Covenant/Twilight crossover fanfiction.

Yes, some people love the boys in that Renny Harlin film that much:

http://www.fanfiction.net/Twilight_and_Covenant_C

Goon
Guest

From now on I will only refer to the cutesy boy vampires of Covenant and Twilight as Chadpires.

Shannon the Movie Mo
Guest

No fair I missed all this Twilight discussion!

BTW, the guys in The Covenant use magic so they are witches/warlocks as opposed to vampires.

Marina Antunes
Guest

"If its about Bella and what she’s going through, and that includes her relationship with Edward, then you can’t write off questions of authenticity of Edward’s character."

I must not be making myself clear – I agree that we have to ask those questions (they are very valid) but the answers are all speculation. We simply don't know enough about the character (from either the movie or the book or even the two combined) to get a clear answer. And that is a problem in both the books and the movie.

Marina Antunes
Admin

On "Nobel Son" – Walking away from that I wasn't sure on whether it was total brilliance or complete shit. Everything seems at odds with the story being told (particularly the music) and I shook my head throughout. I didn't hate it but it's a bit of a mess. In the end I came to the conclusion that it was shit with a few choices and moments of brilliance. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it.