Cinecast Episode 123 – All the Negativity in this Town Sucks

cinecast_promo.jpg Matt Gamble

Episode 122:
After taking last week off we are back, but a mite surly. Gamble & Kurt are united this week in dumping on T4 and celebrating The Limits of Control but then go to their corners with a disagreement on Brothers Bloom. Andrew goes gaga over The Girlfriend Experience but otherwise keeps the children from pelting each other too much this time around. Enjoy
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show Notes…


Show notes for Cinecast Episode 123:


Stuff we covered:


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DVD Pick(s) for Tuesday, May 26th:

Andrew:


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Matt:


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Kurt:


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Comments or questions?

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My Podcast Alley feed! {pca-b6a3963fe46651dd4492aa9955834140}
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Goon
Guest

I dont like having to do all this extra work to view show notes stuff I may not even care about :/

Goon
Guest

oh and even though theres all this extra stuff, I STILL cannot directly download any mp3s from your podcast pages. I always have to go to the 'subscribe' page and get it there, and right now I'm not even seeing a link to that.

Goon
Guest

Well see what other people think.

I dont consider them 'extras' but adding extra clicks and not really knowing what I'm getting… its annoying, from a web usability standpoint. I think there's just too many icons/things to choose from, and clicking just to reveal an image…

It could be more streamlined. You have four main sections there – the overall breakdown, stuff covered list, dvd picks and comments… maybe each one of those should be a 'show all'

actually… the comments box area probably should be available to view, period.

in general, its not so much confusing as it is that most of the things are a mystery. I see now the 'all podcasts in one feed' link actually is there with the RSS notes, but I wouldnt know that unless I just kept clicking.

I'm just giving my opinion as someone with a web design & user experience background, and as a user of the site. take it for whatever that's worth.

An alternative perhaps:

i can see maybe why you want some of those things to be 'spoiler free' or something, but maybe if you can edit the 'show' text in some cases so I know what I'm clicking and trying to find? if its going to have a subhead of 'trailers and movie clips', just put that instead of 'show'. If its going to have time breakdowns, put that instead of 'show'

icons are fine, but in UX you cant expect them to do all the work for you.

Goon
Guest

*by comments box i mean the "comments or questions" area, not a reply box.

another thing:

instead of separate 'show' for dvd and blu ray, maybe combine them together by person. and the 'show' text could say Andrew, Matt, Kurt instead of those subheads

Goon
Guest

for no particular reason I'm posting an oscar nominated animated short from several years ago I just watched today. It was great, says a lot about passing of time, and is funny:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2apjw_rocks-das

Das Rad (The Rocks)

Rusty James
Guest

about the crucifixition. I havent seen it in a while but I think in Dead Man Walking they both strap Sean Penn to a table like that and stand him up.

leeny
Guest

I am not a big fan of the new show notes. I was interested enough to go from the main page, to the post page, and now I have to click a series of buttons to read the notes. Didn't I come to this page specifically to read it? Seems pointless.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Leeny/Goon/Drew: Maybe the links after the jump should be all by default 'showing'

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

@Rusty: "about the crucifixition. I havent seen it in a while but I think in Dead Man Walking they both strap Sean Penn to a table like that and stand him up."

That's wacky! Then again, so's the death penalty. For a Christian country that has so much trouble separating church and state, it is very strange that The Death Penalty is violating Commandment #5. The last layer is to 'essentially' crucify (well without the pain and suffering) by raising them up on a cross if that is how it is actually done.

or is this just one of those 'movie things' like lights inside the space or diving helmets which makes no sense practically but works as imagery?

Why did I bring this up for such a brainless blockbuster movie? Sorry!!

Rusty James
Guest

@ For a Christian country that has so much trouble separating church and state, it is very strange that The Death Penalty is violating Commandment #5

Sigh. That statement is a mess: I thought you were supposed to be a christian country. And why don't you do a better job observing church and state?

So, are we "supposed to be" a christian country or a secular country?

In fact we're one of the few "western" countries that doesn't recognize christianity in our constitution. I'll put the US record of relgious tolerance up against any european country. Look at what's going on in England, France, Germany etc… they're passing laws left and write outlawing the Koran as "hate speech" (American is one of the few western countries left that doesnt recognize this type of crime) outlawing religious dress, "fringe" religions are illeagal in Germany. The list of these attrocieties goes on and on. In America we're not plagued by these problems because we have a constitution that guarantees seperation of church and state.

Take it up with Henrik, he lives in a country where the Lutheran Church is state funded and they retain a monarchy.

In conclussion, go blow it out your ass.

Kurt
Guest

No, McG just did it because it looks cool and the movie is called SALVATION, the rebirth is the essence of the film! This is not a trivial point, and I found the cross to be very heavy handed, even for a 'terminator' movie.

Kurt
Guest

I like most Americans I meet, but I've never understood the hard-core religion embedded in the soul of the nation, and how it divides things in the U.S. of A. Obviously I'd prefer it to be a secular nation from a law/policy point of view. Isn't that what your forefathers wanted? Separation of C & S?

Rusty James
Guest

In which way exactly do you think we fall short Kurt?

Rusty James
Guest

You guys should do a special salute to kurt episode where you find as many ways to mispronounce every name as much as possible. Every last name as the emphasis on the wrong syllable.

rot
Guest

well you're not Canada for starts, thats right I am proudly waving the red white and red some more.

heh.

rot
Guest

its funny David Chen on the slash podcast does the same thing, pronounces the one actor Mark Ru-Fallo. This could be a problem of getting news strictly from print sources.

Matt Gamble
Guest

If only Kurt mispronounced just one actor's name.

Shannon the Movie Mo
Guest

"Leeny/Goon/Drew: Maybe the links after the jump should be all by default ’showing’"

That would be cool!

Rusty James
Guest

There's no double standard in play at all. Atheists don't get a free pass when it comes to "forcing our religion on others", centaintly we dont get a free pass in the press and in public perception. We're the least popular religious group in the country.

Anyways, you should be less concerned about the Atheists trying to force their beliefs on you and more concerned about the religious actually succeeding sometimes.

Goon
Guest

No double standard. It's simply a matter of my rights ending where another persons begin. In the matter of government affairs, I'm not pushing for atheism, I'm pushing for neutrality, and for the abolition of any laws that exist purely on religious grounds rather than common sense.

Right now in Ireland they are trying to create a law against blasphemy, fulfilling part of their constitution, which states: "The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent material is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law."

Could you imagine putting that into practice? Stopping that sort of thing from ever happening, and preserving neutrality where it exists, is my only agenda. I believe most of the public consider themselves more religious in theory than in practice, and don't believe there are thumpers at every turn as in Jesus Camp, and can get along just fine with most people who do consider themselves religious. But there are enough true Dominionists out there to stay vigilant. It's no conspiracy theory.

Goon
Guest

“Leeny/Goon/Drew: Maybe the links after the jump should be all by default ’showing’”

I dont see why if they default open why people would waste their time closing them after the fact.

Goon
Guest

People can* legislate and enforce morality on the public, and you can enforce against speech you don't like, but you can't stop people from believing or disbelieving anything.

There are people I see on both sides who act as if any law can eliminate an idea. There are reasons to be worried about certain things, but I don't get it when people think removing prayer from public schools and showing neutrality is going to force someone into a lack of belief.

* 'can' does not equal 'should'

Kurt
Guest

I wouldn't be looking for lack of belief, people can believe what they want. I just have a hard time accepting religion as the cornerstone for the countries policies. But America is so big and diverse I understand it isn't that simple (hence the messy statement above. Wow, that was indeed sloppy!) And things are not very consistent.

Canadian's (and I'm guessing a lot of the rest of the world) don't have an issue that America has problems, every nation has its share of problems, it is just American's are so damn proud to be the 'standard-setting' country for the planet, I think that is what sticks in peoples craw.

And the religious right and their grip on the government for so many years just makes things look wacky.

As I said, I don't have too many issues with the folks I meet, and they can believe what they want. No problem. But when you add 300 Million of 'em together, things get wacky.

Rusty James
Guest

Like I said. I'll put America's record of religious freedom up against any other country's. Certaintly France, Germany, England, and Denmark all lose.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Canada is what I know. We're far (FAR!) from perfect, but seem to have a more balanced view on religious freedoms. We also eliminated the Lords Prayer (and I believe the National Anthem) from kicking off the school day. Which I believe is a fair thing.

Our problem is of course Self Loathing, and often weight too heavily on the anti-american side of things. And celebrating 'just participating' far too often. We've got the occasional school shooting, and are affected by the 'lets bail out the Auto Industry' sickness going around, but we seem to be more willing to keep the religion out of things, and let people marry and adopt children if they are gay. Never a good thing for the government to dictated 'bedroom' policy….OK, I'll stop being smug. Sorry.

Goon
Guest

I always say, sometimes you have to stand up for the rights of the worst in society to protect your own. Even if that means racists.

But like I always say, my rights end where yours begin. Which is why you dont shout fire in a crowded theater. When people are creating such laws about certain words, they are thinking with a similar mindset, even if to you and me it is absurd.

While we're calling it terrifying that a town would try to eliminate public use of a certain word, people accept every day that there are certain words you cannot say on television lest bear a hefty fine. For what purpose? That people be spared from bad manners?

When it comes to a religious fear of religious neutrality and Janet Jackson's nipples, or a left wing PTA group up here trying to ban the word "gun" from a school reading list, it just drives me nuts that some people can't grasp the difference between arriving together on something that is fair and pragmatic, vs. those who simply have to create laws that brings comfort to superstitions and irrational fear. All freedom comes with an asterisk, and people who are truly free at heart scare the fuck out of people who otherwise wear flag pins and sing to eagles.

I realize I'm speechifying fancy as I write this. I blame that I'm right in the middle of a Deadwood marathon, and am caught up in the flowery bullshit.

Rusty James
Guest

Kurt, I'm starting to suspect you not completely familiar with the laws in America. Gays can adopt (although florida tried passing a law, it won't withstand judicial scrutiny) Gay Marriage makes progress and there's no prayer in public schools.

@ They were trying to make it illegal to use the N-word. In other words, an exact antithesis to the first amendment of the constitution.

And in Canada they already have hate speech laws. The exact antithesis of free speech.

Goon, you of all people are someone I wouldn't expect to suffer hate speech laws.

@ But you have to see that eliminating (or creating) a law simply because it has basis in religion is arguably just as bad as eliminating (or creating) a law because it’s not religious.

Not in America it's not. That's the law of our country.

Goon
Guest

"Well, one could argue that some people (maybe an entire country) want laws that are made for both religious reasons and common sense reasons."

I understand there is overlap, and that many things that are 'common sense' also exist in religious text. But things that exist solely for religious reason have no excuse. The US constitution was written the way it was to protect the minority from the unreasonable whims of the majority. If you resort to "well X% of the country believe superstition X, therefore X is okay", well congratulations, you've just justified every single persecution and bigoted act ever concocted.

"Non-religion (or atheism) is a religion in its own sense."

People wonder why atheists get mad when people can't even get the basic facts straight.

If atheism is a religion, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Then NOT playing baseball is a sport. Atheism is a lack of belief or adherence to any dogma, it is not an active position or alternative for any basis of morality. What is the dogma of atheism, hmm? Atheism is one single position – a lack of belief in a deity. This single and only tenet unites people of all political backgrounds, from scientists to objectivists to scholars who study all religions but believe in none in particular, to those who are simply intellectually lazy and have no idea what they think. there are even actual religions like buddhism that incorporate atheism because they have no god. its just one position.

Being an atheist serves no requirement to proselytize, preach, react or abstain to or from anything.

re⋅li⋅gion

  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

–noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

I didnt want any argument to be about what is true or false and I still don't want that. We'd lose focus. But I'd appreciate some acknowledgement that one of the reasons I get so ornery about stuff like this is because of the vast number of people who insist they know what atheism is better than the people who actually are atheists. I feel I have to step in before people say something like "So, you're an atheist. You believe in nothing? And are you a Communist?"

Let me put it this way. If everyone in the world believed in unicorns, and you were the only one who didnt believe in unicorns, would you appreciate someone saying you as an a-unicornist, where thus just as religious as they were?

Goon
Guest

"Goon, you of all people are someone I wouldn’t expect to suffer hate speech laws."

If you're going to connect me being Canadian to somehow tolerating hate speech, then I guess you and Andrew all torture people. Let's not connect the dots into a false picture, shall we?

Goon
Guest

I have only a few theories why people think atheism is a religion…

Atheist organizations – well they exist because a lot of people pay taxes and dont like seeing them going to something the government is supposed to show no favoritism to.

second perhaps that I guess since people see religion as the default position – that taking a stance against it is somehow just as much an active claim as believing in God. We're all born into this world without beliefs and don't develop them until either instructed or are old enough to make up our own minds,

Rusty James
Guest

@ If you’re going to connect me being Canadian to somehow tolerating hate speech, then I guess you and Andrew all torture people.

Actually I was refering to this

"my rights end where yours begin. Which is why you dont shout fire in a crowded theater. When people are creating such laws about certain words, they are thinking with a similar mindset"

"While we’re calling it terrifying that a town would try to eliminate public use of a certain word, people accept every day that there are certain words you cannot say on television lest bear a hefty fine"

Maybe I misunderstood. I didn't assume you supported these laws because you're Canadia. Like I said, I ,wouldn't expect you to suffer hate speech laws.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

You may be right. I guess I'm judging (perhaps unfairly) the entire Union based on the practices of individual states. Social issues should be federal ones, the death penalty should be decided across the nation, like-wise on marriage laws and adoption laws. Admittedly, I'm not sure about the latter in Canada, adoption policies may be different province to province, but I don't think so.

It seems strange that something as basic as the right to share on filing for tax refunds or adopting a child is available in one state, but not in others.

Our hate-speech laws are admittedly sticky. I've got no problem with people saying hateful things in public, like most rational people, I simply ignore people like this.

My perception (which admittedly may be wrong, and admittedly I'm generalizing) is that America has the spirit of the law more fucked than the letter of the law. We have some gaffes in the letter of the law, but the spirit seems better balanced.

Curiously our 'hate speech' laws make exceptions 'for cases of statements of truth, and subjects of public debate and religious doctrine.' Which is simply weird if you read that again and again. Even more amusing is that the few times anyone has actually tried to use these laws to stop people from making 'hate speech' the cases seem to fizzle out anyway. The law on 'hate speech' simply has no bite here.

Rusty James
Guest

@ Admittedly, I’m not sure about the latter in Canada, adoption policies may be different province to province, but I don’t think so.

Roe vs. Wade is a supreme court ruling Kurt. I think you don't understand the ins and outs of federal vs state law in the US. It's pretty complicated and this system evolved out of our history as a union.

By the way. My uncle and his wife are Canadian and they were unable to adopt because apparently Canada doesn't allow interracial adoption.

@ The law on ‘hate speech’ simply has no bite here.

Well if i were you I'd expect those laws to start biting before too long. As people get acclimated to them lawyers and judges will start applying them more aggressively. I encourage you to not shrug appathetically just because they're not hurting you right now. Take proactive opposition to them now.

Let me ask you this. Is there a viable political party you can vote for that takes strong opposition to these laws? If not, they're already biting you just haven't felt the teeth yet.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Uh, Rusty, isn't Roe vs. Wade the abortion ruling? Have we jumped hot-buttons?

Goon
Guest

"Maybe I misunderstood."

I think you took me saying I think I understand their mindset as an endorsement of it. Far from it.

If you remember me mocking a local writer for saying Slumdog Millionaire was the most violent Oscar winner in history, she wrote another article recently claiming Ezra Lavent, a right wing rag publisher who published the Danish Muslim cartoons, was asking for it and deserved every trouble he got over it. That lady keeps paying off with asinine beliefs.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

@Interracial adoption illegal in canada. Preposterous! (albeit, the checks and bureaucracy around adoption is an unbelievably arduous process.)

From the July 22nd 2006 Toronto Star article on the subject:

"The conventional adoption policy is that social workers seek same-race adoptive placements if at all possible. "It's one less thing for the child to deal with," Scarth explains. The Toronto Children's Aid Society reports that 85 per cent of adopted kids each year are matched by race to at least one parent.

But in recent decades, hopeful parents have been bucking that conventional policy, turning more to private agencies and overseas adoption. From 1993 to 2002, Canadians adopted nearly 20,000 foreign-born children, primarily from China, but also from India, Russia and Haiti, to name but a few. The bulk of these adoptions crossed racial lines."

Goon
Guest

"I encourage you to not shrug appathetically just because they’re not hurting you right now."

You realize that this can be thrown back in the face of any american for apathy over any abuses of power in Iraq, Guantanamo… or in relation to the atheism thing, that theres around 8 or 10 states that have it in their constitutions that a nonbeliever cannot run for office? It would be easy to say "You're next!"m

"Having no bite" doesnt give me much solace, but at the same time I'm not willing to ready a noose for the apathetic. It's not black or white "Your country does X and if you're not doing X you're an appeaser" doesn't do it for me.

I see that line of thought especially put up against activists of any persuasion, that if they're do-gooders about one thing but still shop at WalMart that it means they are hypocrites and that thus whatever they're doing good is moot. That sort of thinking is annoying as hell – people who point out where others are apathetic to justify their own callousness.

But I don't know sometimes. Sometimes you want to say "Oh I hate Activist Group X as a whole, but individual people are alright", and other times saying "Oh, the group is fine, its just a few bad apples". It's tough to be consistent there , each situation is its own case.

I guess the whole point through that ramble is that as important as it is to be mindful that one thing can lead to another, it's unreasonable to insist upon another individual that its their ultimate responsibility.

Priorities are fucked when you think about it, even from a pragmatic standpoint. Sometimes the issues that "Don't have bite" or go unenforced can sit on the back burner while we deal with what is relevant to people's daily lives, and other times when you leave them on the back burner to address what seems to be most important, they grow to be too big to manage. It's like spinning plates.

Rusty James
Guest

@ Uh, Rusty, isn’t Roe vs. Wade the abortion ruling? Have we jumped hot-buttons?

You brought up abortion being available throughout canada vs a province by province ruling.

Goon
Guest

"Interracial adoption illegal in canada."

I didn't do the legwork to prove otherwise, just so you know, but all i can attest to is my white neighbors across the street adopted an asian girl several years ago.

Rusty James
Guest

@ You realize that this can be thrown back in the face of any american for apathy over any abuses of power in Iraq,

That was a response to Kurt not Canadians as a whole.

Goon
Guest

Okay. Can we just broker a truce on not associating an individual for the each others nations faults, unless that person actually states some support for any alleged fault?

Rusty James
Guest

@ Okay. Can we just broker a truce on not associating an individual for the each others nations faults,

I would certainly never want to accuse an individual based solely on my assumptions.

Goon
Guest

I'm sure otherwise good candidates get turned down all the time for reasons that to many may seem discriminatory. But I'm empathetic to the people at the adoption office as well, who have a job to do which includes how well the kid will fit in that situation. Adoption is a big deal, and that process will inherently be discriminatory, if not race or religion or sexual orientation, than financial/class.

Henrik
Guest

What America needs, is a good lesson in pragmatism. Get off your high horses and try and get the shit to work in unison with the rest of us!

Goon
Guest

You just couldn't let this one go, could you?

Henrik
Guest

Am I out of line or something? None of you could let this go.

Goon
Guest

I mean… just when it seemed there was some resolution to move away from 'us vs. them' into specific issues, it has to come back to that same dynamic. You couldn't just roll with the punches? you had to sing along with the chorus after they'd moved on to a new song?

Henrik
Guest

Yeah I had to. I'm sorry for not being online at the proper moment.

I have little interest in discussing anything that revolves around whose cousin experienced what.

rot
Guest

Is it wrong to say the puritan spirit of American forefathers lives on in the country? I don't doubt many kinds of cultures have been brought into the melting pot of America, but can you extinguish the IDEA of America? I think it pervades and influences. The self-made man, the notion of clear-cut right and wrong, good and evil, act first, think later, all of this comes from the same wellspring of being puritan, of believing resolutely in what you know and willing to fight to the death because of it.

It doesn't explain everything done on American soil, but I refuse to pretend it doesn't exist.

rot
Guest

also I find the qualifying of particular state law as being somehow a way to blockade any remarks about America as a whole, absurd. If there is death penalty in one state, than the death penalty is condoned on American soil. You can compartmentalize all you like, so long as you are the UNITED STATES you get the good and the bad that happens within your federal borders.

Besides because something happens in a particular state, is that really representative of every individual living in that state? no. We are dealing in generalizations whether its state or federal, you are not anymore accurate whichever you choose, this idea of America, if it is to make any sense, has to assume to be able to float past state borders, its not a corporeal thing. If you want to talk about the idea of Mississipi, what it is, then you can talk on a state level sensibly.

rot
Guest

ah, Godard. I thought so.

which reminds me I forgot to mention on The Limits of Control thread that I consider this film a quantum leap in improvement on anything Jarmusch has done prior. I like his films a lot, but I never knew something like this was in him, it came as a complete and welcome surprise.

I agree with that quote, its where you take it to that matters.

rot
Guest

sorry I am just now listening to the podcast and want to say I think Matt and Kurt are underselling Limits of Control to you Andrew, I think you would like it. The comparisons to Waking Life and Mulholland Dr are about as close as I can come.

Kurt Halfyard
Admin

Yummy. LoC has been lodged in my brain for the past week, and keeps peaking out from behind a corner in quiet moments, yet remains elusive and slippery. It's a very hard movie to write about.