Rewatched and Reconsidered: Crash

Originally

Rewatched

Paul Haggis’ Crash is a go-to example on Row Three for people when they think of a film that is undeserving and pandering, a film which not only won best picture at the Academy Awards but did so beating out the more likely candidate, Brokeback Mountain. Haggis hate hit a fevered pitch when this film came out, but I was never really a part of that backlash, so I thought I would rewatch the film and see if anything has changed.

Don Cheadle’s disembodied voice elicits one of the underlying themes of the film in the first few moments before the story officially begins. The weightiness of the speech, which is poetic yet bordering on the pretentious, lingers a mere beat before it is effaced by another character. This effacement in a way diffuses the pretense of the speech and allowed me to appreciate it for its stark beauty. What was to follow never really lived up to that same cosmic balance of gravitas/irony though periodically throughout the film there were faint glimpses of the measured sophistication Crash could have been had it gone through a few more rewrites.

It is telling in this respect that Paul Haggis not only directed Crash but co-wrote it, perhaps stifling the story’s latent potentialities had it been made independently. Perhaps if someone else had directed the film that person would have included some marginalia on the script regarding the highly suspicious dependence on coincidence at the core of many of the narrative’s intersections. For as it stands one would have to believe the Los Angeles depicted in this film consisted only of some six city blocks so is the sheer implausibility compounded by the chance appearances of characters in each other’s lives. And unlike the cosmic balance afforded by gravitas/irony in the first scene of the film there are various scenes throughout the film which are so blatantly agenda-ridden in their interests to propel the race relation thematic issues that they forego the basic responsibilities of good drama: the nuanced interrelations of the characters must bring about the topical issues rather than the topical issues bringing about the character interrelations. Scenes particularly dealing with Sandra Bullock’s and Brendan Fraser’s characters are about as transparent in their thematic agendas as the hygiene play in Woody Allen’s Love and Death.

That being said, there is still some very good stuff in Crash to make me suggest people should see this, for although the film does not work as a whole there still remain several narrative strands which maintain a higher level of sophistication in their portrayal of the issues posed. Most notably are the narrative strands which follow the wayward contradictions of Matt Dillon’s cop and Ludacris’ car thief, it is just unfortunate that their two paths do not meet up in the film. The prospect of having Ludacris rather than Thandie Newton at the center of the car crash recovery scene seems like a missed opportunity on the part of Haggis; the confrontation of racism between these two confused men would have been far more profound I think. Also intriguing in this film was the study of race relations between people of the same color, which for me is the real revelation of the film, when it veered away from antagonisms between blacks and whites and looked at how they behave as communities in opposition to an ‘other’.

To put this film in a proper frame of reference I would have to say that this is no Short Cuts but it is better than Magnolia. In fact, had the opening monologue of Magnolia been edited onto the beginning of Crash it could of diffused the ridiculousness of the coincidences with a pervasive irony. I think as a rewatch, Crash was even better than I remembered. What sticks out sharply in reflection are the overt plot points that Haggis hammers home but one forgets the little bits in between, Ludacris’ and Cheadle’s story arcs in particular really work, and if one can suspend disbelief and try not to be turned off by the racial commentary of the film, it is an enjoyable if sometimes guilty pleasure. I would take this earnestness over Soderbergh’s pretenses of legitimacy in Traffic, which left me flat, bored, and unconvinced. At least Crash is foremost a well put together, entertaining film that is worth a second look.

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Goon
Guest

Wrong!

Kurt
Guest

Rot, watch the BBC mini series of Traffik. Much more nuanced than Soderbergs version. The 3 hour run time of Traffic stifled the film, wheras the 6-8 hours of Traffik allows it the necessary room for it to breathe and for nuance to settle into the pores of the series. Or something like that.

/Still have not seen Crash so no comment. I don't really like Haggis as a screenwriter for Clint Eastwood though.

rot
Guest

I doubt I will have anyone on this site agreeing with me, and I am not defending the film just to be contrary, I actually believe the film has gotten a bad rap. I would extend it to Haggis in general because I also thought Million Dollar baby was a fairly decent script, what I remember of it.

I think there is this manifesting expectation of realism for every story that is something fairly modern, and cannot except old-fashion more contrived ways of telling stories. I might do one of these rewatched posts for Signs as well, because this is another film that is far better than people contend. It also plays off of olf-fashion movies, like Hitchcock's the Birds, and is doesn't try to hide its script, people talk in a way overtly giving away the storytelling agenda… but Christ Goon, you are a fan of Lost, is there not a more clear example of the a show that is putting its storytelling agenda in the mouths of its character to perpetuate plot?

I see Haggis and M. Night working in this vein, and if you have seen any film of the sixties or earlier you would see how cleanly their storytelling fits into that period… its maybe passe nowadays with the gritty realism in vogue, but if the stories are good enough, I accept the way they get there.

Kurt
Guest

I think Andrew likes Crash, he is probably typing as I post this comment.

Kurt
Guest

Well, I never had a problem of the 'melodrama-done-exceptionally-well' of both Magnolia and Safe.

Kurt
Guest

I'm itching to REWATCH Hitch's THE BIRDS, but my last viewing (10+ years ago) gave me a sense that the film hadn't really aged that well; both compared to several of Hitchcock's other films and also in a general sense. But I do want to revist it for sure.

rot
Guest

I maintain that to criticize a film properly you need to first acknowledge the internal logic of its filmic reality. The L.A. of Crash is not a normal, realistic L.A., everything is heightened, every character interaction is like they took the most charged racial moment of that character's life and set them side by side, not once do I feel like this is a real L.A., its a staged L.A. that is being staged to tell a specific story. When I watch Maltese Falcon, its not a real place either and I do not look at it begrudgingly because it doesn't sit well with the real world… the difference for a modern audience is its a different time period and so its easier to digest, but similar realities can be depicted in modern day for the express purpose of telling a story, or how depressing and imprisoned is the creative spirit, that only reality should be depicted.

Crash never really pretends to be anything but a filmic reality, like I said in the post, otherwise L.A. consists of four blocks, so consistent are the coincidences. Its about ideas of racial relationships and playing them out on a dramatic stage. Its the same way that Juno is shat upon for its bubbly hyper reality, well its never tries to be anything but that, it has its own internal logic, and can't be criticized for it not living up to some external model you have… I mean it can for your own sake but it has no meaning if you are trying to be socially critical of the film. If you are trying to find faults with it that people can agree upon.

I think there is an epidemic of post-Borne realists fetishists out there now, they think everything needs to be compared and contrasted with what happens on their street, nothing can be obvious, nothing can feel written, no style but verite, and thats bullshit. I say that as a person whose stylistic preference is verite, but I can acknowledge that other techniques exist and work within their own spheres to great effect.

rot
Guest

Don't get me wrong, I think Crash has flaws too, but I think a lot of the criticisms are misplaced.

I associate the filmic worlds with thought experiments, accept the ground rules so that you can do the work inside the bubble, and you come out with some product, now leave the boundaries of the thought experiment, or the 'reality' of the filmic world, and then process whether or not the end product has any value to you. If you quibble over the ground rules the entire time you have no product to even process.

Problems arise with filmic realities like Benjamin Button or Indy 4 where arguments can be made that their internal logic is inconsistent, they don't know what they want to be, and they keep transgressing their implicit realities to service some immediate end.

Andrew James
Admin

Well I for one really enjoy Crash. There are times in life when the "hit you over the head" type cinema works; not often, but sometimes. I think Crash is one of those films. I don't think Haggis intended this to be nuanced. I don't think he sat back with the finished product of this film and thought, "I hope people understand what I'm trying to say here." No, this film is in the enjoyment one gets from the way the story is told and from the performances.

** SPOILER SPOILERS **

You are right about it being a bit on the schlocky side, but there are so many individually great scenes in this film (the broken door, the invincibility cloak, the car fire, Terrence Howard snaps and Felipe talks him down, any scene with Cheadle, etc. etc.) that the movie is easy to follow and it makes you want to follow it.

One thing though:
"The prospect of having Ludacris rather than Thandie Newton at the center of the car crash recovery scene seems like a missed opportunity on the part of Haggis; the confrontation of racism between these two confused men would have been far more profound I think."

Really!? I think that scene (which is my favorite in the film) works really well. Sure it's a bit coincidental and maybe too obvious, but you can feel the energy, the drama and the immediacy of the situation. With Ludacris, he'd have no idea the cop is a racist and it wouldn't matter. What is so great about this scene is not only Thandie Newton's reaction, but Dillon's realization of how his actions have affected others. He's never really realized how his actions psychologically affect other people. When he comes across this woman who would rather burn to death than have him touch her… wow. It's intense as hell for the audience and a real eye-opener for his character.

Kurt
Guest

Maybe Crash needed a Lars Von Trier/Brechtian sound-stage with chalk outlines to bring what you are saying in Focus Rot? (Of course, I'm kidding).

rot
Guest

I have never seen the Birds, to be honest. But M Night says it is an influence on Signs.

rot
Guest

Actually that scene, Andrew, (which is in the image of the post) is actually really good but seems less good in retrospect because you remember the corny aspects to it, but it plays far better. No I was saying Ludacris' storyline should have been interwoven entirely with Dillon's, so that there would be a meaning to the encounter and it feels more significant for him to have that realization than Thandie Newton, but yeah I guess you would lose Dillon's realization in the process.

rot
Guest

yeah the people that bitch about Dogville, about how it doesn't represent the real America, that is the kind of idiocy I am ranting against. Even with the stark division from reality that he sets up people still want it to be somehow side by side and analyzed with what happens on the streets of America. Von Trier had never stepped foot in America, Dogville is about his perception of America, a perception that a lot of people have actually.

Kurt
Guest

I'm on board with you, over at my screener blog, the quote in the header is from Robert Coover, "The Miracle of Artifice, is Miracle Enough" and yea, a film that operates its drama and such in its own 'reality' is as valid and interesting and useful as verite or any other such style. It is why I like Gilliam and Wes Anderson, and yes, Lars Von Trier who delights in smashing both styles.

rot
Guest

But neither kinds of reality, filmic or verite, are in themselves justification for the value of the film craft, I guess is what I am trying to say. They are a means to an end, and like almost the grammar so that you may understand properly what is trying to be conveyed. Its like the person who insists about correcting your grammar rather than focus on the message, getting caught up in the minor details that suddenly overtake anything else about the film.

Again, I prefer realism, and in the pantheon of what I value, it will be a higher proportion of films that strive for literal realism, thats just my aesthetic preference (give me an Edward Hopper Painting over a Pollock).

But when artifice works, it works, I embrace it. The film we saw last night, Passion of Joan Arc, or John Ford's The Searchers these are highly artificial but transcendent nonetheless…

Kurt
Guest

I'm continually amazed how well Guy Maddin hits on emotional resonance under layers of artificial, meta- and ironic style. It just shouldn't work beyond formal and aesthetic exercises, but humanity seeps thru the melodrama and heightened state of most of his films, even as you laugh at/with them.

Ashley
Guest

I have a lot of problems with Crash, but one of the bigger ones that doesn't get discussed a lot is the design of the script. Rot mentions Lost, and Kurt mentions Traffik in above comments. Though I haven't seen the BBC version of Traffik, Kurt has a valid point. A lot of people don't realize that from a writer's point of view, film writing and television writing are two completely different art forms. The design and techniques of one don't necessary work for the other.

In a typical hour-long TV episode (45 minutes without commercial breaks), a series like Lost has two or three storylines to work with. That's only fifteen minutes to twenty minutes per story, which is not a lot of time to convey detailed points. Writers rely on the characters to reveal plot through dialogue. It's a fast-paced medium, and there isn't a lot of time to linger on visual clues.

When you pull back and look at the bigger picture however, the character arcs and their storylines over the course of a season or a series, you eventually get a lot more detail than you would in a film. It just takes longer and it's more densely packed.

With film on the other hand, writers have two hours to tell an entire story and to fully develop their characters. This is why most multi-character films, such as Crash, Traffic, and Babel, don't work. There simply isn't enough time to properly build all those intertwining character arcs and their relationships with each other.

I think Crash could have been much better if it had been presented as a mini-series. Haggis could have allowed himself more than three scenes per character, we would have been able to get to know them a lot better. Plus, with the story being segmented into episodes, with commerical breaks, the constant beating over the head with the message would have been less apparent, not to mention more tolerable for the audience. Haggis got his start in television after all, and this style of writing seems to come naturally for him.

Kurt
Guest

Ashely. Bingo! (Although BABEL works just fine after a second viewing – likely the same with 21 Grams for that matter, certainly with Short Cuts and Magnolia).

While we are on the subject, if this were late 2007 I'd argue that the TV/FILM (12-60 hours vs.2-3h it also explains why something like 6 Feet Under works better than say, TOWELHEAD. But then Trublood came a long and sort of fucked that argument up….

rot
Guest

Very good point, I take back the Lost comparison.

But I still maintain something like Maltese Falcon is acceptable for doing the same sort of filmic reality shorthand that Crash is doing but because Crash is modern day and an issue film, it is overly criticized for its lack of plausible realism. Now I can take the criticisms of plausible realism in its depiction of race relations, that's a different matter than how all of them interconnect in a less than realistic space. I accept the filmic space it exists in, but I see some problems in how each part of the story approaches the race issue, some are very good, some are weak.

Another film I need to rewatch and post about is Babel, I only ever saw it at TIFF and was not terribly impressed by it, but suspect there may have been more to it to consider.

Jandy Stone
Guest

Most of the time when I dislike a film I put it immediately on my "eventually rewatch" list, just in case I missed something and the problem was with me instead of the film. I commend you for doing that with Crash – I don't think I can bring myself to!

My biggest issue with it wasn't the reliance on coincidence (I loved Magnolia, for instance) or the unrealistic cinematic space, but the "hit you over the head" factor that Andrew mentions. It's the cinematic equivalent of bad freshman essays that follow the "tell what I'm going to tell you, tell you, then tell what I told you" format. I agree that Haggis wasn't trying to be subtle, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with that decision on his part.

I didn't like Babel either, for basically the same reasons, though I did like Amores Perros.

rot
Guest

Yes, Jandy, I would agree that the hit you over the head instances with regards to race relations does happen in Crash, there is no doubt, but I think it is a shame because it doesn't happen nearly as much as you may think. I mean once you accept that everything on stage is going to be about race not even as subtext but text, then the frequency of it occurring ceases to bother me, merely the individual cases of execution. The Thandie Newton-Terrence Howard-Matt Dillon story worked for me because that is a genuine issue, both the representation of the black male in society and the profiling (I have a black friend who was stopped and put in jail for driving in the wrong area of town), the Ludacris-Terrence Howard cross worked the best, because I don't remember ever seeing that kind of internal race issues displayed, same going for Dillon and Phillipe. Cheadle's storyline is the most subtle and nuanced, whereas Bullock's is the worst. The film does a lot of good things, but it needed another rewrite to clean out some of the more obvious stuff it threw out there.

I think of Crash as an equivalent of the play Blue Room, which maybe not so many know of, but its a series of interrelating sex stories, different partners, same essential dilemma, and Crash is like that, same issue, different characters, the sheer volume of situations in a short span is not a fault of the film, its deliberate, its what the film is about. That does not excuse the individual scenes, which are uneven at times.

ralph
Guest

for me, it was the exact opposite. i enjoyed it the first time i watched it. the second time, i enjoyed it less. the third time, i began to dislike it quite a bit. haven't watched it since, but i'm still blown away that it won the Best Picture oscar.

Matt Gamble
Guest

My feelings on Crash: Here and here.

Top that rot!

Andrew James
Admin

I like how you actually linked to the definition of a "Cleveland steamer."

Matt Gamble
Guest

I'm nothing if not thorough.

rot
Guest

Matt Gamble hates black people.

Rusty James
Guest

Holy shit, Matt's mad because the wrong movie won some award. That is really creative, I've never heard of that before.

I bet you're pissed that Dark Knight fanboys stole your idea.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Matt Gamble hates black people.

Nice. That reminds me of the time when a customer cursed me out by calling me "John McCain".

Rusty James
Guest

@ That reminds me of the time when a customer cursed me out by calling me “John McCain”.

Was that a statement about your politics or just an honest mistake?

Matt Gamble
Guest

No, he was just trying to insult me by calling me a name. My theater is in a area filled with aging hippies, so naturally the worst curse they can think of is to call someone a Republican, whether they are one or not. Andrew would never last.

Andrew James
Admin

My friends call me a Republican all the time; even though I'm a registered independent. It's true that in this town if you own a gun or want to teach abstinence in lieu of abortion, you're automatically a Republican. Having said that, if "McCain" is the worst thing someone can think of to call you, that's pretty funny – not to mention pathetic.

Henrik
Guest

Why would you own a gun or not teach abortion though? Such backwards thinking, you must be a republican. (By the way, registering for something doesn't really mean anything, and unless you're in a position where your friends require documents, I don't see how it's a relevant argument.)

Henrik
Guest

Oh, and abstinence education… Are you kidding me? Does anybody anywhere have any positive experience with this? Scratch that – has it ever worked anywhere? I think the only place abstinence is succesfully implemented is in the tribes of Somalia where they circumsize girls.

kurt
Guest

Actually, I tend to agree with Henrik on both these points, but lets not get political again, shall we.

Andrew James
Admin

Reword. I should've said, "Teaching abstinence in lieu of promoting abortion. Not teaching abstinence in lieu of teaching about abortion." Still, I see your point and understand that teen pregnancy is a good thing. I wish I wasn't such a backwards thinker. If I ever have children, I'll try to impress upon them that sex at age 12 is totally fine, in fact encouraged. And when the time comes, I'll help them financially and emotionally to take care of it. That will be so much better for their psyche and physical health in the long run.

And yes, I have quite a bit of personal and scholastic experience with this particular topic.

Andrew James
Admin

Oh, and most of the hunters I know happen to be Democrats. Boom.

Henrik
Guest

Teach them that sex is natural and fun, but having a child takes responsibility, and you're not ready for it at an early age. Also, teach them that abortion is a legal and acceptable thing, but it is killing what will inevitably become a human being, and therefore is an extremely deep strain both emotionally, physically and mentally. It is desireable to be avoided.

Andrew James
Admin

"an acceptable thing" would be the only partof your statement I disagree with. It is acceptable to you and many people. It is unacceptable to many more.

Henrik
Guest

Treating it as unacceptable is the backwards thinking. No pragmatism, only dogmatism, is what fucks you and your stupid nation up.

rot
Guest

"No pragmatism, only dogmatism, is what fucks you and your stupid nation up."

Holy hypocrisy, how many times have I tried to philosophize with you and you said that you believe what you believe and will not give in to any kind of reasoned debate?

Remember this gem:

Its okay to pursue knowledge as a species even if it means our annihilation, all that matters is the knowledge not us.

You want to talk dogma, you are fucking Jonestown dogmatic, Henrik.

that said, even considering pragmatism, the issue of abortion has got to be the single most complicated issue to work out, it depends upon metaphysical ideas that we have no grasp of, and to just assume that they don't exist is convenient, but that don't make it right.

Henrik
Guest

Is that an exact quote?

I fail to see your point I'm afraid. What we were discussing there is much grander than an abortion, something that can actually be experienced and has to be dealt with in the real world. It's easy to be dogmatic towards stuff like the nazis, but not so easy if you have to deal with them in the real world. I think discussing the future of human kind as a species and abortions are completely different things, and call for completely different mindsets.

Rusty James
Guest

@ but lets not get political again, shall we.

I had no idea that the admins here objected to the frequent political bouts.

I always thought that the policy here was that threads were free to go off in whatever direction.

Henrik
Guest

I think the issue of abortion is extremely complicated as well, but I believe it is complicated on a personal level, specifically wether or not you should have one. The people who are comfortable making this sort of decision for others are crazy.

Rusty James
Guest

@ Dogville is about his perception of America, a perception that a lot of people have actually.

This is going to sound odd but it's baffling to me that anyone think Dogville (or Manderlay) is about America.

To me it's obviously a sardonic interpretation of Catholicism.

kurt
Guest

"@ but lets not get political again, shall we."

Shall being the key word. There is no editorial policy here (or the almost complete lack of policy is the policy). We like the free-for-all nature of things and the spirited debates from the 'regulars' and anyone else that wishes to join in.

Rusty James
Guest

@ Why would you own a gun

This is why your country still has a monarchy.

Henrik
Guest

Not all countries can start as colonies Rusty.

Rusty James
Guest

@ Not all countries can start as colonies Rusty.

I bet 200 years ago that was a really good excuse.

Henrik
Guest

Well, at least it gives you an opportunity to crack jokes instead of thinking.

Rusty James
Guest

^^^^^ I think your country's pretty lame.

Henrik
Guest

I know. Most americans probably would.

Goon
Guest

For the record, I'd rather have a monarchy than be a retarded gun owner.

I can support gun rights, but everyone I know who ends up getting one becomes an absolute retard overnight.

and if anyone here owns a gun and takes offense? Good.

Andrew James
Admin

No offense taken. That's the dumbest statement I've ever heard from you Goon. I don't take offense from stupidity.

Goon
Guest

Stupid is as stupid does, and getting a gun is doing something stupid that at the same time seems to make people stupider.

And I'm talking firearms here, not hunters, but for the record there as well, having fun killing animals, and the people who have fun watching other people kill animals (hunting shows?). I don't get it. At all.

Look, don't assume I'm some ivory tower person who has never seen a gun or doesn't understand this shit. I've had a gun waved directly in my face, randomly, by someone just looking to scare the shit out of someone to impress his friends. Did that shape my overall opinion? Sure, but its just one thing. I've watched person after person get a gun for seemingly logical reasons, only to become a rabid idiot with increasingly ridiculous ways to justify it to himself.

Andrew James
Admin

Mine was a gift and is worth quite a bit of money. It's a rare piece of equipment, fires really well and looks cool. If you know someone who waved a gun in your face, you should call the police. It's HIGHLY probable that that person does not have a permit as anyone who has their permit has taken classes and respects their sidearm. If not, it should be revoked.

Goon
Guest

"That’s the dumbest statement I’ve ever heard from you Goon. I don’t take offense from stupidity."

Again like I said, everyone I've ever known to has gone out and become a gun owner, has become a gun NUT.

N. U. T.

The first line in my most recent paragraph is just baiting, I hope that's obvious. I am definitely talking my own experience, and as its shown already, that even dictating your own experience of how you've seen gun owners become idiots, drive out kneejerk reactions to call the other person an idiot.

I've been through this enough time that your response was predictable, which is why I preempted it with "if anyone wants to take offense…" Anyone that would jump to take offense when someone is describing their personal experiences, DESERVES to have gotten a rise out of them, and should think for two seconds why that is.

Andrew James
Admin

You didn't describe your personal experience in your first comment. You simply said people who own guns are retards. That's not offensive in the slightest. It's asinine and borders on humorous. I guess we just know different people or travel in different circles. I know tens of people who own guns and none of them are stupid, retards or "nuts." Most of them have college educations.

Goon
Guest

"If you know someone who waved a gun in your face"

The person who waved it in my face was someone who I did not know, and they were out of there as soon as they got the look on my face that they wanted.

I've had another gun in my face, but it was a replica/fake and he was pretending. We didn't talk too much after that, and in the social circle we were in there was not much I could do about it, and in that case I was too young to think about it much after that.

If anyone gave me a gun as a gift they would no longer be my friend. I would not own a gun, period, even if I lived in a shitty part of town. That's a personal moral I've come to and I'm sticking to it. I have no interest in shooting one for entertainment (I have no idea the rush anyone could get from one, but thats me. I've said again and again that guns are absolfuckinglutely the most boring weapon around). If you want to get into 'protection' thats a whole other thing I suppose, and its a real debate to me where you can get into stats about the likelihood of it being used to save your life vs. the likelihood of it being stolen or taking the life of someone you love, etc. – Thats all well and good but I'm not that interested in that. I will say that when I do get into these debates with a lot of gun owners, the ones I know have gotten to such extremes to justify it to themselves they can't even acknowledge theres a debate to be had, they get so riled up that they could spit and shout "Commie"

So yeah, I can't say I'm defensive and reactionary so much as i have encountered that same crap over and over again so often with people I know in real life that I have to put up with, because well – THEY'RE PEOPLE YOU KNOW WITH GUNS – that on the Internet I'm pre-emptively rude because. Sorry bub, but the Net is where people like me who have to put up with shit from gun owners they know go to vent.

I like swords, knives, blades, or that friggin Klingon thing. I see those things as art and sure I suppose they could be used as a weapon and you've got some of those same problems. There we have my 'looks cool' vs. your 'looks cool' – I don't think guns look cool, I think they look like ugly replacement cocks. Nothing elegant. That sounds harsh, but that is what I see when I look at them.

Goon
Guest

"You simply said people who own guns are retards."

I said 'than be a retarded gun owner' and then immediately gave a sentence saying everyone I knew that got a gun became retarded. I thought that would have clarified things by itself. Guess not.

Goon
Guest

If we're going to continue how far I go with civilian gun owners though:

I would not go into a persons house if they owned a handgun, and while I can back up the stats thing for part of it, I can bluntly admit my experience is partially to blame as well. I don't want to be around them in that setting. It creeps me out. Look, I don't trust people in general, so obviously I don't think most people are smart and/or responsible enough to handle a firearm to the degree I would like them to.

I can be in an OutdoorWorld looking at guns, I can seperate fantasy from reality and watch guns in movies, and if I am watching guns in movies I like big loud BOOMS and noise instead of spattering non stop gunfire that never hits anyone. But even a firing range isn't secure enough for me. Nope. Not gon' do it.

Ironically enough, the last time a store anywhere near here was robbed, it was at sword-point.

Andrew James
Admin

Yeah, I definitely think it's a personal experience thing. I grew up with guns. I was in boy scouts where we learned how to handle, understand and appreciate guns as potentially useful tools and/or as entertainment. I've been in many, many homes with guns, known many, many people who own guns and as far as I can remember have never had a negative gun related experience (which I'm sure I would remember). The people I know take guns seriously and respect them. They also respect people.

I truly believe in the old cliche that "guns don't kill people; people kill people." The fact that you and others get worked up about guns is usually due to either a bad experience from someone who is an idiot, or simply just a general lack of knowledge and/or experience. i.e. ignorance.

Goon
Guest

I grew up around guns too man, my grandfather is a complete hunter/fisher and I lived in that house with my grandparents. I assure you I had more guns and dead animals around me as a child than you did. 😛

But I never got it. I never thought fishing was fun, and I was too young to go hunting by the time we moved away, and I really don't regret it. I'm verrrrrrrrrrrrry far from a PETA person, I eat delicious animals, but I still don't think much of hunting or hunters and its all because of the sport of it. I dont give a fuck if they use every single part of the animal and claim some respect for it, I don't buy it when you're putting on ridiculous fatigues and expensive scaffolding and making a fucking event out of it. I think the 'sport' of hunting is a joke, and if theres any enjoyment to be had out of killing animals, if thats a bonding experience, than its one I can do without thank you very much. i know every democrat likes to come and pander to the hunters and call it a grand tradition and its wonderful, but I dont. I grew up in it and I can say that I personally think its retarded.

I've never been personally satisfied with anyones description of a gun as entertainment, shooting targets or cans or the rush from the blowback, it just sounds lame to me. Honestly. And if its just a tool I dont see the need for it to be rare, cool, or collectible

So thats fine. I dont get cars either. I dont get why people follow most sports closely anymore, even though I used to. I think NASCAR is the most retarded of them all. There's a number of things I simply do not relate to at all.

So you've never had a negative experience, but what to chock up not liking them up to 'ignorance' – doesn't that seem a bit unfair? I think its pretty logical that someone with close access to a weapon is pretty dangerous when it comes to a moment of rage or fear. Guns dont kill people, but access to guns sure can, and does.

Also, going back to our old city/country thing. I grew up in these small towns and have moved to gradually larger ones, and one thing country/rural people flat out do not respect about city people is that the urban gun experience is a lot different, and the 'tradition' and grooming of young boy scout gun owners is just not there. We only hear about city folk enforcing their values on small town america, well sorry, but its a two way street, there is a need to crack down on inner city violence and there are reasonable measures that can be taken without hearing about some stupid Alex Jones level crap.

LIke I said before, I dont trust most people to use a gun responsibly, and that can be do to several factors. When you see their temperament, how they handle other people with actions vs. words, how they drink, how they drive…

In the end the people who I think would be most responsible and even tempered with a gun… don't own one. It's like how the people who I think would be the best parents claim they'll never have kids. Guns and kids are in the hands of the people who I trust the least, and thats more terrifying than the guns (or kids) themselves.

Fuck, kids are getting taught to use weapons before they can drive a car or be allowed to drink. I will gladly get on my high horse and say there's something kind of disturbing about that.

Henrik
Guest

"useful tools and/or as entertainment."

I think this is sick.

Goon
Guest

You know, considering how much opposition there is to sex education, teaching kids that guns can be entertaining… that is so fucking weird. I mean you might as well cue the People vs. Larry Flynt sex/violence speech right underneath me.

Goon
Guest
Andrew James
Admin

I've never gone hunting a day in my life, nor do I want to.

I think it's odd that you wouldn't want people/kids to be educated about firearms. That's why people get killed accidentally; because they haven't been taught that there's no such thing as an unloaded gun. Should we stop teaching that running in the house with knives is bad and simply either remove all knives from the house or just let thenm figure it out the hard way?

Oh yeah, and where did I ever, EVER say I have an opposition to sex education? That's ridiculous. I just said that encouraging abstinence is better than teaching abortion as a method of birth control. There's a HUGE fucking difference.

Goon
Guest

Going back to Crash, I think almost every movie about race has been pretty terrible. maybe its a "RA_E" curse, because that goes for most movies with a rape scene to.

Every since I saw it, i've been flipflopping back and forth about American History X. Here's how it goes – I see it and I think its a bit too after-school special, then I argue it and remember the points I like and want to see it again. ie. the basketball scene

Then I see it again and remember all the parts that are retarded, and how that overall framework is still pretty stupid: "I hate black people. I met a nice black person. I changed my mind" – Really strong convictions you have there, Derek. This man led a movement?

Oh yeah, and so of course the movie has a rape scene as well, because its easier to show him changing his mind when you have his prison friends rape him.

"Hey guys, since we've spent all this time making the black guy and Nazi friends, couldnt someone come to the conclusion that maybe Nazis can be nice while also (or instead of) learning that black people are nice?" "Oh shit, you're right. The other Nazis need to rape him and hunt him like a dog the second he leaves prison. Not even his girlfriend will understand."

Andrew James
Admin

I don't know, obviously you're a bit on the sarcastic/facetious side, but I think Derek's change of ideals is fairly gradual isn't it? It's been a while since I saw the film, but I remember him being really confused for a long time and reading books and his teacher visiting him and stuff. And beyond the racial stuff, wasn't he more worried about keeping his brother out of trouble? I'll have to watch it again, but I remember being quite moved by that film.

Henrik
Guest

“guns don’t kill people; people kill people.”

I guess the american people are just predisposed to be killers then.

Andrew James
Admin

@I guess the american people are just predisposed to be killers then

Predisposed? No. Slowly poisoned by society to become killers and thugs? Yes. Unless they are properly educated.

Henrik
Guest

How the fuck do you encourage abstience Andrew? Other than cutting up body parts to remove the pleasure, how do you make it less appealing? I can't believe there are still retarded idiots thinking that abstinence education is worth a pot to piss in. Sex rules, especially when you're young and full of fervor. Just give the kids condoms, teach them how to use it, and tell them what being a parent is. After that, cross your fingers – this is the main activity when raising a teenager, and the one nobody seems willing to accept.

Goon
Guest

Also, the movie puts more effort and time into making the racist opinions eloquent than it does into his enlightened post-prison stint. "What good is it to be hating someone all the time?" is a nice point, but they're putting that up against a humongous wall of other shit that they never bothered to address.

And he only starts to change their mind when he sees the other racists don't practice what they preach and deal with other racial gangs. So… if the prison Nazis were true to their stripes, none of this would have happened? The biggest baddest and hardest of the hard Nazis who killed people and are doing time are the least committed? The whole movie like that just seems like the case of a writers pen clashing with actual research, rather than marrying it.

Henrik
Guest

American History X rules, except for the prison segment which is the one that feels like moralizing.

Henrik
Guest

You don't think it's insight on behalf of the movie, that the nazis in the end are pragmatic towards real life? Cough-Hitler/Stalin-cough. Nothing is as easy or simple to believe in as what Derek thought was right, and that's a lesson worth learning. I think the number one cause of nazism in the world is stupidity, not ideological beliefs.

It's brilliant that the racism is the seductive, eloquent and exciting part, whereas the actual real world, the truth is boring, ineloquent, diffuse and offers no real solutions to any problems.

Henrik
Guest

"Slowly poisoned by society to become killers and thugs?"

I'm sorry, I thought the society consisted of american people too.

"Unless they are properly educated."

The same people who won't release education to the poor. Guns though? A dime a dozen. That's how you build a society.

God damned retarded country.

Andrew James
Admin

Yes Henrik, and I'm going to teach my kids the merits of non-violence by hitting them in the face with a shovel to show them what it feels like. Next, we're going to drive into a telephone pole at 60 mph without seatbelts so that they are sure to understand the importance of car safety.

Goon
Guest

"Oh yeah, and where did I ever, EVER say I have an opposition to sex education?"

Never, I was making a general point/aside. I even forgot that you had said this:

"I just said that encouraging abstinence is better than teaching abortion as a method of birth control. There’s a HUGE fucking difference."

Are you saying schools teach abortion as birth control, as if its that flippant? That's news to me and certainly not my experience. The sex ed class in my high school was pretty damn good, I'd give it an A+ if I were rating, but a lot of that was the honest way the teacher handled things. Our gym teacher was a lot like Henry Rollins personality wise – honest and funny but kind of intimidating and directly confrontational, and he made sure people understood pregnancy, stds, abortion, everything in a way that was purely common sense and had no political, activist or religious morality overtones. Abstinence is probably the best thing to teach, but abstinence-ONLY education is shown to be ineffective, and its pretty easy to see why. It baffles me how many adults have forgotten what its like to be a kid, and that the think if only they somehow knew even less than they did, that it would somehow work out better. If we're on a train attacking ignorance, abstinence-only education is the standard bearer.

Henrik
Guest

I'm sorry, did you just compare having sex with speeding and violence? YOu're an idiot.

Andrew James
Admin

@ did you just compare having sex with speeding and violence?

I did not. I used extreme examples to show that your statement (that the only way to teach abstinence is by way of sexual mutilation) is stupid.

Andrew James
Admin

Alright, I actually have to get to work now. Chat at y'all later.

Andrew James
Admin

Henrik, you have like eight people in your country. We have 300 million. It's complicated. Not retarded. I'm actually a bit surprised you have the internet.

Henrik
Guest

What the hell kind of an excuse is that? We have 300 million people so we have to spend money on missiles instead of schools? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Henrik
Guest

I didn't use it as an example, I used it as a scare tactic. What else are you going to do? Simply repeat "Don't do it" and install Lost-in-Space robots in kids rooms? "DANGER, DANGER!"

Goon
Guest

Henrik, you're starting to sound like Lars Von Trier. Unless you've ever been to America, documentaries, books and movies probably itself aren't going to cut it, and calling the country 'retarded' overall isnt going to help anything here.

But overall…

Obviously if I were to summarize my entire world view it would be that people in general are pretty silly and stupid, and it isnt a government or system that is always keeping them down or causing them to be that way, because the people in government are people too, and well, they're silly! Attacking America as a whole would be just singling out a particular form of silliness. If I were to pick which area of the world I relate to most, it would probably be Scandinavia, but I don't live there, I'm not fully educated or aware of their real problems, I havent dealt with their overall quirks or traits, if they have an overall way. I could go there and be driven insane by having to deal with them everyday, I don't know.

I'm rambling.

"Yes Henrik, and I’m going to teach my kids the merits of non-violence by hitting them in the face with a shovel to show them what it feels like."

So I suppose you're anti-spanking then?

But that's apples and oranges, there's an obvious benefit to not being violent. You can't explain the merits of not having sex to most teenagers, its just not a tenable, rational position. You don't say "Please have sex" but you show some common sense and say "If you fuck up at it, you're dick is going to be green, everyone will know, you'll have a son from a girl you're to young to know if you really like and your life will be ruined" – Pregnancy and anti-abortion movements really do collide with proper sex education. Children having children is not a miracle, is not joyous, its a shame, if we were able to properly cut past the 'babies are great' mindset and teach people how fucked up being a teen mother is, maybe some of this shit would be easier.

Henrik
Guest

I've spent a total of 7 days in America, in NYC and I loved it.

Andrew James
Admin

NY is its own country. I've been there twice for about 3 days each. I too loved it. Go to Milwaukee or St. Louis or Laramie, WY. Completely different. Maybe I'm wrong, but Iceland is probably one culture where "everybody knows everybody" kind of feel.

Countries like the US take days to travel across (in fact, you can't get to all of the states without a boat or plane) and have SO MANY different ways of life it's almost overwhelming. There aren't too many generalized statements you can make about America; which is why you get flak Henrik when you say things like "America is retarded because 'X'." Because that X factor is probably different in ten different corners of the country. So when I say you have 8 people in your country and we have 300 million, it's not a cop-out or an excuse; it's simply the way it is.

Goon
Guest

"Pregnancy and anti-abortion movements really do collide with proper sex education."

I should clarify – teaching people a program like abstinence only that doesnt work, and also teaching them that if they get pregnant they need to keep the kid? Thats a problem to me.

Teaching them explicitly about sex, the benefits and the consequences, and they get pregnant anyways? Then you have a kid that either didn't listen or didn't care.

Which one is more sympathetic, the ignorant victim of bad parenting and bad (or no) education, or the wilfully ignorant? Knowing who is who, knowing who wilfully is ignorant and asking why they ignore the education, seeing why they personally may even want the kid, all of this is useful information and a positive result of sex education even if certain kids fuck up. There is nothing to be gained from abstinence only education, it is putting your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la la la la'.

Pretend you bought a teenager a car, a gun, or a 40 ouncer and then told them not to use it until they were something vague like 'old enough' – if they go out and use these things without education and do something stupid, the parent is at least partially responsible. It's as much their failure if not more. And kids in general care a lot more about sex than they do about these other things, and damned if they dont like these other things too. An abstinence only parent is a failure of a parent, obviously too immature to deal with the reality inside their child's head and pants.

Henrik
Guest

Percentage-wise, we have the same nutcases you do. They're just not in control like they are in America.

I think going to Milwaukee or St. Louis or Laramie, WY would be experiences that would frustrate me to the point of insanity, and make me so depressed that I would have to turn to shit like Iron Man just to get away from the horrible world I was in.

Henrik
Guest

By the way, do you think I live in Iceland?

Andrew James
Admin

@By the way, do you think I live in Iceland?

Yes.

Goon
Guest

"They’re just not in control like they are in America."

There are a enough influential racist parties in Europe, and outright fascist movements throughout Europe, to watch your tongue. Just because it hasn't happened in your own country doesn't mean it can't.

Tiny fun facts for perspective and just because:

– There are about as many people in Minnesota as there are in Denmark. If we want to throw insults around at overall countries, Henrik I advise you brush up on Minnesotans and specifically target them 😛

– Every part of Minnesota is further north than New York city, and almost all of it is further north than where Kurt, rot and I live (around Toronto)

– Prince, Husker Du and the Replacements are from Minnesota (right?) They are very good. Volbeat, Junior Senior and Mercyful Fate are the first three bands I think of when it comes to Denmark. I'm gonna have to give that one to Denmark, personally.

If Henrik lived in Iceland I'd defend his right to hate America to death. the US is probably more responsible for what is currently happening in Iceland than Iceland is itself. They are just FUCKED right now.

Andrew James
Admin

Also from Minnesota:

Coen Brothers
Bob Dylan
MacGuyver
Kevin Sorbo
Josh Hartnett
Jessica Lange
Judy Garland
E. G. Marshall
Garrison Keilor
Stuart Smalley
Wynona Ryder

Goon
Guest

…or alternatively, instead of US vs. Denmark it can be US vs. Europe, and then everyone can be an ignorant bitch.

Henrik
Guest

I don't.

I guess I can not critisize America, because it is so big, I could not possibly understand it. America wins again, and the time-old american mantra and way-of-life "SIZE MATTERS" once again solves their problems. Glorious retards.

I have no idea what Mercyful Fate is but Volbeat and Junior Senior are pretty poor bands. We don't have much worthwhile music in Danmark I'm afraid.

Andrew James
Admin

Of course you can criticize America – for a lot of things. What you can't (or shouldn't) do, is make blanket generalizations. It isn't fair to the Eskimos or the blacks in Mississippi or the Latinos in Minneapolis or the ranchers in Colorado or the CEO's on Wall Street. It's so vast and diverse that nearly any statement one makes about America (or more specifically Americans) is probably going to make the statement incorrect regarding a huge percentage of the population.

Henrik
Guest

I like Bob Dylan quite abit.

Goon
Guest

Buying the O'Reilly juice and calling him Stuart Smalley is Lame with a capital L.

Goon
Guest

"I guess I can not critisize America, because it is so big, I could not possibly understand it. America wins again, and the time-old american mantra and way-of-life “SIZE MATTERS” once again solves their problems. Glorious retards."

Oh come off yourself, you're pushing this too far. I will openly say that if its a broader Europe vs. America argument, most Europeans will know America better than vice versa, but it's still stupid to pull some overall judgment. You're projecting problems with certain americans onto all of them. I understand the frustrations with Americans, and when one of them comes to visit and doesn't understand why we take off our shoes when we go in the house (is this something that happens in Minnesota too? It's weird, you savages 😛 ), I'll laugh, but at the end of the day its not a tenable position to be so enraged all the time and on the attack if you can't demonstrate you know what you're talking about, and sorry man, I don't think you know enough to properly keep up.

Volbeat sound like an American band, influenced by rockabilly, punk and New York hardcore like Life of Agony and Type O Negative. I like them. I like good blue chip pop music, and Junior Senior are definitely that. Mercyful Fate? King Diamond? I guess they're more known over here? They're an earlier era extreme metal band, very influential, and probably their biggest exposure was being the metal song they always keep playing in the Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back movie.

Goon
Guest

^whoops, I mean Clerks II

Matt Gamble
Guest

Minneapolis is considered one of the best music cities in the world. Dylan alone is better then anything Denmark has produced.

Goon
Guest

I associate Dylan more with NYC since thats where he well, became influenced and actually good 😛 – I identify people more by where they are nurtured into real successes. I mean, if I suddenly became a more famous person overnight, it would be annoying to watch people in New Brunswick claiming me as their own. Fuck those people, if they tought me anything at all it was in what I dont want to live in and be nurtured by. 😛

I mean, do you think of Spielberg as a product of Hollywood, or a product of Ohio?

Goon
Guest

"Minneapolis is considered one of the best music cities in the world. "

This is news to me. When I think about great American music cities, beyond the obvious big cities that would pretty much have to be – NYC Chicago and LA – I think of Austin, Seattle, San Francisco, Memphis, Nashville, Portland, Seattle, Athens, Atlanta, Boston.

Andrew James
Admin

I think Matt may be right on this one. Aside from maybe Austin or Seattle, I'd rather be in Minneapolis if I were a musician than any other of the cities you mentioned.

Goon
Guest

Austin smokes Minneapolis alone because Austin has Spoon.

And I even forgot to mention Detroit Rock City. Even though Kiss, Kid Rock and Ted Nugent totally suck.

I think this is a case of Minnesota pride blinding your judgment. Seriously? I mean come on, what other relevant acts have you actually produced lately. Fucking Semisonic?

Sure you've got Tapes N Tapes and Low, but they're really not that great or important.

I didn't even mention Montreal or Toronto, both of these cities kill Minneapolis right now. If we're talking indie at least, these cities are taking up more of the share of relevant acts – Arcade Fire, Broken Social Scene, Feist, Fucked Up, Wolf Parade, Constantines, Final Fantasy, Holy Fuck, Hayden, Metric, Death From Above.

And if you want to play legacy cards – Neil Young, who is up there with Dylan at the very least, and was actually influenced and nurtured by his surroundings.

Natch.

Minnesota's not on the map for modern shit.

And if we want to talk rap or metal, even worse. Europe is smoking every American act out of the water, and only the Bay Area of the US seems to consistently produce good thrash, and the glory days of NY and Florida metal are long gone.

Andrew James
Admin

I'm impressed you know who Tapes N Tapes are. We also have Hockey Night, Jayhawks and Soul Asylum (ok, bad example), Mason Jennings, Lateduster etc. But I think Matt just means in terms of venues and national acts that we get here. The number of good to great bands playing any night of the week here is ridiculous. I mean we've got Tegan and Sara, Ting Tings, Appleseed Cast, Ben Kweller and Aqueduct all coming within the next couple of weeks.

On the local scene was have a SHIT ton of bands that are fantastic that maybe aren't heard of, but certainly should/will be: Haley Bonar, Doomtree (hip hop), Alpha Consumer, Sick of Sarah, Big Wu, Dosh, Pete Yorn, Duplomacy, Romantica, etc etc

Goon
Guest

Atlanta has Deerhunter, Mastodon, Man or Astroman, Outkast, Cee-Lo Green, Ludacris, T.I.

San Francisco has a shitload of 'legacy' cards to pull from Metallica to parts of Slayer to Santana, Jefferson Airplane and more, but in modern indie terms Deerhoof alone are better than any band I can think of from Minneapolis. Portland has M. Ward, Menomena, and thats where Britt Daniel is originally from if that matters.

The Hold Steady has what, one member from Minnesota, but they are definitely an NYC band overall, and aside from that, they totally suck. Seriously, who the hell is from Minnesota thats actually important right now?

Goon
Guest

first Tapes N Tapes album, from what, 2005? is good. Second was ass.

but you said "I’d rather be in Minneapolis if I were a musician than any other of the cities you mentioned." – I dont know what justifies that if its not actually producing anything, and most decent size cities can manage to get that sort of lineup. Even when I was in Edmonton within a week Metallica and DragonForce were there. In Toronto this week we've got Ben Kweller, Meshuggah, Eagles of Death Metal, Soilwork, Ben Folds, Blitzen Trapper, Antony and the Johnsons. its kind of taken for granted :/ – Lykke Li was here last week and I missed it, I had no idea she was even coming until the very last second.

Andrew James
Admin

I guess Matt should back up his own statements. I can say that when I hear lists of cities mentioned on the radio or in discussion or whatever, Minneapolis is mentioned quite often. "Top cities in the world" might be a bit excessive, but yeah, I think other than Austin and maybe Seattle, Mpls has quite the music scene (even if you haven't heard of the bands internationally).

rot
Guest

"Minneapolis is considered one of the best music cities in the world. Dylan alone is better then anything Denmark has produced."

I know Matt, the implication is Dylan is associated with Minneapolis, but have you read his Chronicles, he hated it, and only got into his own in New York.

Have not parsed this whole tangental thread though, so maybe someone already made this point.

Henrik
Guest

lol Soul Asylum.

Matt Gamble
Guest

I mean come on, what other relevant acts have you actually produced lately.

Currently Minneapolis is considered one of, if not the best hip-hop city in the country currently. Between the Doomtree and Rhymesayers labels alone you have 4 (Atmosphere, Brother Ali, Heiruspecs and P.O.S.) of the most cutting edge hip hop acts in the world right now. Brother Ali's 2003 album Shadows of the Sun is widely considered one of the greatest rap albums ever made. But yeah, Minneapolis hasn't produced anything recently.

BTW, I'm not from Minnesota, so claiming its my Minnesota pride is simply incorrect. I'm not even a huge hip hop fan but the acts Minneapolis is producing right now are making people notice just what Minneapolis has been doing the past decade. Minneapolis is currently one of the most influential music cities in the world, and has been for the past 3 decades. Hell, during the 80's Minneapolis was THE music city in the US. It's not like that all suddenly stopped.

Goon
Guest

"Currently Minneapolis is considered one of, if not the best hip-hop city in the country currently."

I'm laughing at you.

rot
Guest

from race issues in Los Angeles to hip hop in Minneapolis.

I love it.

Matt Gamble
Guest

Because of a typo? Go nuts.

Jonathan
Admin

The beauty of the third row, rot.

Goon
Guest

Atmosphere sucks and has put out hyped disappointment after disappointment. "…Lemons" is a step up but they're still nowhere near being first class.

If you want to try and make the case that it stands up to Atlanta, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Houston, or a number of other cities, fuck even Kansas City, you're kidding yourself.

"Minneapolis is currently one of the most influential music cities in the world"

yeah, it influenced Bob Dylan to get the fuck out of dodge and become a legend somewhere else 😀 😀 😀 😀

BURN

Matt Gamble
Guest

I don't need to make the case Goon, its a fact. That you keep claiming Minneapolis doesn't have any modern acts, yet know of an underground act proves how full of shit you are. Ant is one of the most sought after producers in the business, but yes Goon, "Minnesota’s not on the map for modern shit." You go on believing that. Keep repeating it to yourself as well, maybe eventually someone might actually believe you know what you are talking about.

Mould left too. Who cares? Oh wait, that's right, that means Husker Du is a DC act now. My bad.

Goon
Guest

"That you keep claiming Minneapolis doesn’t have any modern acts, yet know of an underground act proves how full of shit you are."

I said they're not on the map, and they're not. They're not producing anything particularly good, and definitely not producing anything relevant. The fact that I know a few bands doesn't mean anything, considering I know the Polish metal scene very well and they've only produced 1 and a half decent groups, ever, and they both share one of the same members.

"Mould left too. Who cares? Oh wait, that’s right, that means Husker Du is a DC act now. My bad."

I suppose maybe they are. If they couldn't get nurtured or at least positively influenced, it's a little silly to hold on to them too much. The neighborhood where Dylan grew up has been scolded and attacked by him saying he never fit in and people were bad to him, but they go and change the name of the road to Bob Dylan Street and they paint his old house with him all over it. "He's a flower that grew out of a pot of dirt! We're proud to be the dirt!"

Yeah sure part of me here is trolling and picking a scab because whether or not you admit it I can see the local pride or delusion poking through 😛 – It happens everywhere. I mean where I grew up, near where we live we happen to produce a lot of good wines, occasionally a great one. But then someone will say we're known as one of the great wine regions of the earth, and then its like "Hold on buddy."

Rusty James
Guest

Gamble's blind Minneapolis love is now officially lamer than Row Three's collective Canadian nationalism.

rot
Guest

I don't know about nationalism, I would never defend Canadian cinema as something of national pride, and I would gladly exchange our Harper for your Obama, but sure, our horrible socialism, I would take it in a second over the general disregard for average citizens in your country. Lest we forget where this credit crisis originated from, and why.

Kurt
Guest

I think we support Canadian Cinema here at Row Three because the examples we generally crow about are good films that are not getting their due because our film economy does not the distribution or Marketing clout to bust into the American market (and for that matter barely our own market).

I'll defend and crow about good movies from any country. It's not about nationalism, it is about good movies. It just so happens that I can hear about the more obscure stuff becuase I live here and have access to folks/media that i don't really easily have in Sweden, Serbia and Sri Lanka. And a lot of Canadian films that simply look crappy (like say Paschendale) I'm happy to ignore and not offer up my $ to.

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