As potentially snarky as the title of this post sounds, we aim to confound and amaze all the eyeballs that come our way. Well, no, actually. Some of us spend perhaps a few too many minutes of the day sifting though RSS feeds and browsing around the ether. Every now and again you hit a single sentence (mostly written by someone else!) that is so great it must be shared.
So I offer the opening salvo of Glenn Kenny‘s The Curious Case of Benjamin Button review:
“There are two kinds of people in the world. People who believe Barry Lyndon, and people who believe Forrest Gump.”
I happen to have similar tastes to Glenn in most things cinematic, and it is worrisome that he is comparing Button to Forrest Gump. (And here I thought Slumdog Millionaire would be this years Gump). Furthermore, upon sitting down with Barry Lyndon a few years ago, I was amazed that this film doesn’t have the ‘name brand’ recognition of Dr. Strangelove, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or even The Shining. Barry Lyndon is a masterwork.
Discuss?
Funny enough, as the new trailer for “Button” rolled in front of the movie we saw this weekend, my friend leaned over to me and said, looks kind of like Forrest Gump in a way. I guess I didn’t see the comparison in the trailer, but she did. So there you go.
Also, Forrest Gump is a great film.
On that sir, we most definitely differ. Gump sticks in my Craw.
I agree with Andrew that Gump is pretty awesome. But I still have zero interest in Button. Thank you Glen Kenny for being as entertaining as ever with your reviews.
“On that sir, we most definitely differ. Gump sticks in my Craw.”
You’re an asshole.
Guilty as charged.
Gump stands against everything I like in a film. It panders to me in a way that insults my intelligence and undermines any notion of art in favour of sappy feel good moments and trite expressions masquerading in the form of wisdom.
I like a little manipulation in my cinema as much as the next guy. But Gump is way way way too heavy handed and facile.
I think Gump is guilty of almost everything its charged of, but I like it anyways. Why? It’s simply funny, has ‘movie moments’ that I get a kick out of, and I never take the serious side of it… um… seriously, and don’t know why anyone would unless they were ridiculously sentimental.
I think you can be perfectly capable of getting a kick out of it without taking away any moral lessons or shedding a tear. I take it about as seriously as I take the Goonies or Back to the Future.
Goon is right. But I would argue that the film opens itself up to not being taken seriously as well. So many serious situations are being dealt with in a humourous way that it’s endearing. If you like history, you should appreciate the way Forrest Gump deals with it.
I wish he’d expanded on that statement a little more. What do you think he meant by the comparison.
Actually he did further down in his comments section:
“”Barry Lyndon”—a clear-eyed, caustic, ironical perspective on the human condition. “Forrest Gump”—a sentimental, putatively “open-hearted” perspective on the human condition. ”
Which sums things up pretty clearly.
Goon and Henrik have mentioned this before, and perhaps a viewing of the film as a pure parody of the American Dream and American 20th Century History is the right way to treat the film.
As a guide or interpretation of the human experience (as many good films are), frankly, it blows chunks.
@ As a guide or interpretation of the human experience (as many good films are), frankly, it blows chunks.
Yeah, I don’t think many people have been in danger of thinking of it on those terms. Although I could hardly think of it as satire or subversive either.
It speaks the language of a fairy tale. In other words it’s not meant to be taken at all seriously and cant’ be accused of historical revisionment because of its overt appeals to fantasy.
By the way, did anyone watch The Shield finale? It would’ve been cool to have a thread but I have a feeling I’d be the only one posting.
I know a lot of people who love The Shield. I’ve not watched the show myself. Did It go something like 8 seasons?
This was season 7 I believe.
I think The Shield is retarded…
@ I think The Shield is retarded…
I just remembered I’m not disappointed that there was no thread afterall.
Any Mad Men fans out there, or is it retarded too?
I’m in the middle of watching the first season of Mad Men. It’s very good, but its still growing/building. Worthwhile so far, and despite the hype better than I expected.
I am on disc 2 of the first season, and it seems like it has potential but the writing is not always there, and scenes kinda drag on that really do not need to. The last episode I watched, Babylon, was really lousy in this regard. will keep going though.
Watched a few episodes of Mad Men but never got into it. Planning on taking a second look over the holidays. After all, with Dexter and True Blood finished for the season, I’ve got some extra free time. Lots more I’d like to watch but that one’s pretty high on the list.
I’ve also been watching Dexter’s first season but hit the ep where its all about Angelos or whoevers marriage troubles and lovelife, and Dexter wasnt stalking anyone. it was horrible. the show in general is kind of a self parody sometimes, the way the narration is so self serious and winking…
“This wasnt the hunt I had in mind. Did I mention I kill people?” – I mean its kind of blunt, bland wit so often.
So yeah, that ep was so bad I havent continued since then though I eventually will. I had the same problem with My So Called Life, was really going with it, but then you hit that awful Halloween ep and you just want to take a break from it.
@goon… You have to finish the first season. There is an episode where even Dexter was having a hard time dealing with all the blood. Season 2 was still good, but not as good as the first.
There is a bit of a lull in Season 1 but Season 2 is AWESOME. I was a little concerned with the way the beginning of Season 3 was unfolding but I do love the current direction. Not to mention, Jimmy Smits is really great as this Season’s special guest.
As for MSCL, love that show. Except for the Christmas episode. That one’s a bit too cheesy even for me.
“Season 2 was still good, but not as good as the first”
Really? I liked Season 2 better. Have you started on S3 yet?
“its like when you are no longer having the fight, the fight is having you”
My wife watches the Christmas episode of My-So-Called Life every year.
I’m on disc 3 of Mad Men now and in love with the show at this point. I mean specifically, Peter Campbell. He’s like a Coen Brothers character, on disc 3 he has the best scenes in the series to date as he returns a wedding present and shares a tender moment with Peggy. you’ll see what i mean. i mean, fuck. and Don and Roger’s relationship gets funnier, and the one liners do fly.. yep, I’ve hit my moment where i just get addicted and will probably finishe the series by the end of the week.
Gump stands against everything I like in a film. It panders to me in a way that insults my intelligence and undermines any notion of art in favour of sappy feel good moments and trite expressions masquerading in the form of wisdom.
I’d say the same about Mononoke.
/baiting
Mad Men is sick good. The acting is simply stellar, and not just for a television show. The line deliveries are pitch perfect and the subtle looks and movements are where the show really shines.
I still haven’t decided which character is my favorite, though I have a soft spot for Salvatore and especially Roger. Salvatore gets a bit meatier role in Season 2 and he really should blossom as a character over the course of the series. Between him and Joan you really should get an interesting look at how the 60′s tranformed the dynamics of their lives, probably more then any of the other characters.
Campbell really takes off in Season 2 as well becoming an almost tragically sympathetic character inspite of being a complete weasel. The relationship between him and Draper becomes pure gold every time they share a scene.
I’d watch an entire series of just Campbell and his sort-of-cronies, the same as I think a series with just Christopher from the Sopranos and his dumbass goons would be hilarious.
@ Matt. I am Refusing to rise to the bait. I’m focusing my energy in defense of the Miami Vice movie which sadly, most people do not appreciate its greatness.
/And I was so kind and forgiving of your Transformers: The Movie pick….
theres a temporary store right by the Eaton Centre in Toronto which is selling shitloads of dvds for 5 bucks each, with about the same variety you get in HMV’s bin sales, a mix of good bad and ugly. The Miami Vice extended edition people say is good is there. I may pick it up.
I haven’t seen Mad Men. Does it have advertising in the middle?
Is that supposed to be some weird way of asking if advertising is at the heart of the story, or if its broken up by advertising?
Yes, its about advertising but sometimes if not most of the time its as much about advertising as 30 Rock is about writing a TV show. It’s the character.
Its on an HBO-like network so it has a consistent flow, no ads. It has a very good look to it so rent the DVDs if you can. Shows got a very deliberate pace with no immediate hook-y arching plot (but its not a self contained “House” type show either). You wont go episode to episode hoping a smoke monster returns, you just want to keep spending time with the characters and see who snaps/unravels/does something stupid/etc.
“You wont go episode to episode hoping a smoke monster returns”
There is a lot of smoke though, Goon, I don’t know…
If it has no ads in the middle, I’m interested, though I have yet to be impressed by an HBO show (or HBO-like show) other than Band of Brothers. The Wire, Deadwood, The Sopranos… all shit as far as I’m concerned.
Calling the Wire shit is about a million times more offensive than anything you could say about Portugal or Spain.
I refuse to believe you watched more than one episode.
I can see people giving up on the Sopranos after a couple seasons, but Season One is a masterpiece.
make your case or shut thy mouth!
Portugal or Spain? Eh?
I have not watched more than one episode of The Wire. Lame walk-and-talks, people yapping away, seemingly plowing through dialogue rather than talking to eachother. And apart from that, it’s just another american show concerned with guns, money and power in the most concrete way. How could I possibly relate?
The Wire is canon around here, one shall not criticize it, only kneel by its altar.
The Sopranos, I think is a better show than the Wire, but I am in the minority probably here… and Goon, season 1 is probably the weakest, the characters were finding themselves, and then they just break through walls the remaining seasons.
The Wire and the Sopranos only work through watching the characters develop over seasons… its not a one episode and you get the idea sort of commodity… they are both far more ambitious
@Kurt
If you went after Transformers you would be no better then Michael Bay. I triple dog dare you to stoop to that level. And I was nice enough to not put up much fight about Mononoke. You have so little innocence left, and I just didn’t have the heart to take that from you.
There are only a few Mad Men episodes that work as single installments. The show is really about how each of the characters develop and change during the 60′s. The show is far more about how they interact with one another, and what they don’t say rather then what they do, then pushing forward its plot. Though the plot is at times pretty compelling too.
what rot said about the Wire. The first time I ever watched it I expected another cop drama where everything is tied up at the end of each episode. Nope, its a couple ongoing cases that stretch beyond seasons and typical archs. Anyone who only watches one episode is in no position to pass judgment on it. Its like watching the first two minutes of Lawrence of Arabia and saying the movie as a whole is boring. If you didn’t want to follow up after one episode (and honestly, the first couple eps of every season of the Wire are the least interesting because theres so much build) then fine, but its not ‘shit as far as you’re concerned’, its ‘shit as far as you know’.
I cast thee off ignorant fool!
As for Sopranos, perhaps part of my specific love for season one has a lot to do with a lot of peoples affection for first seasons of shows, it was fresh and the original idea and ambition is top priority… I do think overall though the 4th season was probably the weakest for me.
“people yapping away, seemingly plowing through dialogue rather than talking to eachother. ”
Schoolteacher Prezbo would keep you after class and nurture you into a right thinking human being.
For the record, I think Lawrence of Arabia is pretty fucking boring.
“ongoing cases that stretch beyond seasons and typical archs.”
Stuff like this means nothing to me. What means something are human beings. I don’t give a shit about “archs” or other concrete ways of defining it. Seems to me you’re making an argument that The Wire is way above other TV, but since TV for me is 99.7% shit, it doesn’t convince me of any sort of greatness. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
The Wire is better than most movies, and most assuredly most movies you like.
You’ve complained about things having lack of plot so many times before, you’re just making excuses for yourself. Besides, the Wire has ‘human beings’ in droves, tonnes of characters and pretty much all of them develop nicely. Considering you’ve watched one episode which had to introduce probably around 20 people within an hour, for you to sit in judgment is really fucking lame.
“The Wire is better than most movies, and most assuredly most movies you like.”
Nice.
“You’ve complained about things having lack of plot so many times before”
I think you’ve misunderstood me everytime Goon, because usually I complain about things having a plot. I hate plots, they always shackle reality into these boxes that in and of themselves make no sense, and have no relation to me as a human being. The only thing that justifies a plot is extraordinary aesthetic value (as in Star Wars, episodes 1, 2 & 3 or Hellboy 2).
You are one imbalanced human being.
Fear my imbaness.
Not that I have any delussions that anyone listens to me around here. But if you’re into the The Wire you should really look into The Corner. It’s a six hour miniseries and it’s filmed in (what looks like) the same neighborhood where a lot of The Wire takes place. And it’s pretty much the best thing HBO’s ever done.
I’d be hard pressed at any ‘best thing ever done’ claim when Mr. Show exists
@Rusty
sold. I am adding it to my christmas viewing… been looking for a miniseries or series to tear into over the holidays.
Have you seen Scenes From A Marriage rot? Blows the hell out of the romance you usually find so interesting (Hiroshima, L’Avventura). If you haven’t, I’d recommend that to get you in the christmas spirit.
Wasn’t THE CORNER done by the many of the same folks? (Ditto: Homicide – Life on the Streets)?
I still need to see Scenes of a Marriage, and I look forward to some good Bergman.
L’Aventurra is not a favorite of mine, though, for the record.
Kurt, yes it’s the same baltimore based production company.
Must’ve been somebody else championing L’Avventura on rowthree then… Sorry.
Is it translated Scenes of a marriage in english? No matter what its called, I recommend you invest yourself in it rather than another gunshow. Relevance should come before entertainment.
It would be easier to accept recommendations if you didn’t insult their other interests in the same sentence.
If you take it as an insult then so be it. It is the truth as I perceive it, and that is all I can stand presenting.
Let me put it this way. if someone comes up to me and says, “Hey you, put down that issue of Maxim and read this copy of War and Peace. it will make you less retarded”, no matter how good War and Peace is, to your face I’ll make a retard noise and keep ogling, just to rob you of your smug satisfaction.
I guess my fault is not recognizing that the people I talk to read Maxim.
I DONT.
ITS AN ANALOGY.
Merry Explain Everything To Henrik Day.
I guess going along with the analogy doesn’t work.
but even if I did, the point still stands. I would not tell you “sure, I’ll go read War and Peace right away!” because then you’d feel justified smugly pushing your tastes on other people by method of trashing the tastes of others.
“I guess going along with the analogy doesn’t work.”
I suppose if I said “I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast”, you’d miss the point and believe I’m a fecalphiliac.
Can you not understand that when you compare yourself to a maxim reader and me to somebody to champions War and Peace, I respond by saying I didn’t know you read maxim as if to say, I had no idea how low the level of your litterature was?
Don’t they have hypothetical situations in Europe?
Goon: If I have four apples, and you have three apples, how many apples do we have together?
Henrik: I don’t have three apples.
Goon: I know, its just…
Henrik: Do you have four apples?
Goon: No, what I’m saying is..
Henrik: I guess your first mistake was assuming there were apples.
THE END
Goon, for fucks sake, I went along with your universe. You made yourself into a maxim reader, and me into a war and peace evangelist. For fucks sake, what I did was say that me the war and peace evangelist, made the mistake of not realizing what you were reading was maxim.
I did not dismiss your analogy by saying “I never championed war and peace”.
Check please!
so when is the Goon and Henrik Vaudeville hour podcast coming out? Honestly, I am already a huge fan.
rot – you are on to something.
No. Seriously.
the first episode begins with the classic ‘Who’s on first’ schtick, a slight deviation of the maxim/war and peace schtick.
This is hilarious. I almost spit my coffee reading this thread.
favorite line: “Don’t they have hypothetical situations in Europe?”
BENJAMIN BUTTON DISCUSSION BEGINS NOW
SPOILERS MAYBE, HERE THAR BE DRAGONS
I guess I’m the first person to report in on this, and this is the best thread to use for it.
This movie has Gump all over its face, but at the same time the comparison is a bit unfair. In a heartbeat, I really liked Benjamin Button and would give it a 4.5/5
As some may remember in advance I was very wary of the movie, didn’t expect much from it and even going in to the theater was prepared to be bored or angry. I remained guarded for the first 20 minutes or so, but I eventually gave in and let it spread juicy Gump all over my face.
Listen, the movie is very sentimental, its a whole life, its an unapologetic tearjerker, and Kurt may end up hating it if Gump is that much of a problem for him. I like Gump. I recognize its flaws but think of it as a fun movie with a good story, and don’t take the serious stuff to heart. It doesn’t bug me. But I don’t defend Gump much.
I would defend this, and so I have to thus say the comparison is at the same time unfair. I think there’s a main difference – Gump is telling the story of An Ultimate American Life, full of success in sports, business, war, love – its easy to see as obnoxious, and it taps for every peace of sap it can get and goes all the way with it. Benjamin Button’s life is relatively simple and normal, just merely dealing with the complications of aging in reverse on all of his life’s relationships. It has big moments in his life, but they’re not so extraordinary that you can’t relate, and the story merely decides to make the most out of everywhere Benjamin is. It has its sappy sentimental moments and life lessons here and there you can take or leave, but it also discards a number of devices and moments that almost any other movie would joyously exploit.
I’ve never seen so many people crying in a theater at once, and its telling to me that its a general crying, its not over big moments, shocks, revelations, its just a general feeling that came over people. There is a constant spectre of death over this whole movie, and its not necessarily dour, nor is it necessarily relevant to my life right now. But for the people who are a little older, the kind of people who read the obituaries every day searching for acquaintances, it may be very very much relevant.
Anyways, I’m waxing a little more poetic and reviewy than I normally would for a movie, but maybe that should say something about the film and not me.
I predict this will win best picture, even though it probably still won’t crack my top 5 and will barely wedge in the top 10. it’s just one of those movies you know has an impact with a lot of people and feels like an Oscar winner. The performances are good to great but not exactly mindblowing, and definitely not the crux of what you’ll discuss afterwards if you like this.
The story for me is Fincher. It’s not his best film, but it might be his greatest acheivement, the way he balanced things out between acceptable melodrama and pure cheese, kept a 3 hour film interesting, and of course the technical acheivements, of which there are many.
Are there still things to nitpick and even make fun of. Yes, but there is simply too much right with this movie to deny. I read some negative reviews of TCOBB in advance, thinking, “Of course”, feeling my suspicions would be confirmed. I suppose if I read them again I would be able to see their points and not argue too much over it, but as its stands now I am quite impressed with Fincher, and think he may be a lock for Best Director, if that matters.
theres a post on the AV Club that I thought rang absolutely true about this movie:
“Is this the most divisive movie of the year? I’m hearing some pretty divergent opinions. I think most people can agree that Eric Roth’s screenplay trends a little too much towards the treacly and Gumpish, but the point of disagreement seems to be whether or not Fincher’s treatment of that material transcends it.”
Obviously as I said before, its Fincher’s treatment that made it so worthwhile, and why it seems like such a greater success for him personally. Most of the nitpickings I could make are directly the result of Roth’s screenplay:
the way Katrina is worked in feels acceptable by the end, but for most of the movie the 2005 segments feel kind of hammy and unnecessary. the love story is told more though looks between Blanchett and Pitt, and specific shots, than it is through the story itself. The general feeling Fincher gives through the film as things happen makes you think more about life and death than whatever comment the characters have about it. Benjamin Button narrates this movie, and its 3 hours long, but you still don’t really know him all that well, you can see how he’s affected, but not through his eyes.
One more person I’ll paraphrase quote is Steven Soderbergh, who in talking about the movie said that he loves the movie, found it very emotional and great looking, but why he’s specifically happy out is that Fincher has now shown he can pretty much do anything, tell any story, has expanded his horizons to the point where no film should be out of his breadth, nothing should be considered a ‘mismatch’
I hope he’s right.
Planning on seeing this Today or Tomorrow. R3view on Button coming soon.
So I caught Benjamin Button and have a few things to add to your two cents Goon:
First of all, unlike Kurt, I actually like Forrest Gump (like not love) so the comparisons with BB to Gump do not phase me much. In scope of story BB is very much like Gump, I know it is not a highly original opinion to hold, but there are times when it is nearly tripping over Gumpism (I am as happy as a bee), and instead of a feather you have a hummingbird, and more importantly, and this is the crux of my small corner of this discussion, like Gump, Benjamin is a one note character. There is no dimension, no attempt at making him anything but the foil for the subject matter. I mean quite literally his voice never wavers, neither does Gumps, but the same kind of quiet observing of the world as it goes on around them, its in both. This resistance from having Benjamin possess anything remotely like human complexity did bother me, he is a sympathetic character with a literal twinkle in his eye, and much like bad things happening to a kitten, tears would still fall, I do not rate the value of BB because of how many audience members cried. Its a fairly safe cry, though i never really got emotional at all watching the film, I can understand how some may.
I still liked the movie a fair bit, maybe 3.5/5. For its length, I never found it lagging. I thought it had a visionary look to it all, the CGI was flawless, everything was in its right place (to quote radiohead), and it was a worthwhile film which was unable to break into that higher stratosphere its subject matter deserves. Its no where near my top ten of the year, but neither is it a bad film or a blight on Fincher’s career.
Kurt I thought you hated the numbers-for-letters trend. If you’re going to say it was outdated and stupid when Se7en did it, what are we supposed to say when you use it now? R3view… Pfft. I prefer Se7en, at least it makes less sense.
I don’t have much to argue with there rot, but for me the Benjamin Button character and his ‘complexity’ again goes back to my main stark contrast between him and Gump: It’s a quite simply character, but he lives an average life, so I think people may actually read between the lines and be a lot more accepting of that, that the average life grounds that character and makes him more than one-note. And again that feeling can only come from the way Fincher handles the material.
One other thing I was thinking of today was that both Gump and Button are both pretty much innocents. Neither of them seem to have done anything particularly wrong, and their questionable judgments are vindicated later right out of the mouths of other characters, the “You were right” lines, etc. And if you want to use that as a slap against the film, you’ve got it. But I think of the main difference between the two and again, you have Gump having to ‘earn’ Jenny by becoming ultimate male and never getting up, whereas Button is pure tragedy and just has that short window for what he’s wanted, thanks to other peoples’ hangups and practical problems.
So in the end I wonder if you agree that Fincher’s handling is really what will probably sway most people one way or the other. This movie relies a lot more on visual storytelling and what you think of the general plot. I like the characters just fine, and while maybe I could drum up more of an argument with a second viewing looking out for things rather than just experiencing it, at this point its not much of a crime to say the characters aren’t complex.
no, not much of a crime, I mean this is a fairy tale, and operates as such. It wants to ruminate on life, on living every ounce, on preparing for the inevitable heartache and death that befalls everyone, and it does so tenderly. The sentimentality would choke Henrik. I see wasted opportunity, a story that COULD have been told more literally with greater tragedy. But Fincher never aspires for that, the story never wants to leap into the real world, and so for what it aspires to do, it does it well. Perhaps emotional complexity to Benjamin would be too distracting, Fincher is forming this story like a time elapse image, things being fairly still as the subject slowly deteriorates.
On the ‘numbers in the middle of words’ You know Henrik, I never really thought about it. We use it as short-hand to indicated it is a group review, it’s not there for the sake of simply putting in a number for no apparent reason.
You’ve got a point though.
Haven’t made it out to Doubt, Benjamin or Valkyrie (or anything else) over the holidays. Hoping to remedy that starting least tonite.
I think rot, if they took the story more seriously, it would probably come across as too ridiculous. The fairytaleness of it all is definitely necessary.
I think if anyone could have made it a bit more realistic, it would be Fincher. But I figure if he was working with Roth in the first place he certainly must have intended this to come out the way it did. I don’t see any ‘mistakes’ in the film – I mean, it knows exactly what its doing at all times, and you either accept it or reject it.
putting a number in place of a letter was new, at least to me, when Seven came out. This was pre-Internet explosion era. I mean using a ‘z’ in place of an ‘s’ (Biker Boyz, etc) was considered fresh back then.
for Gump haters and lovers alike:
http://stupidest.ytmnd.com/