40 response about Cinecast Epsiode 91 - Of Axioms and Androids »

1. 

   Your list of Top 10 Movie Robots has a blaring omission… the HAL9000. He’s sci-fi’s ultimate mechanically engineered intelligent being. Tsk, tsk. Also, I think Marvin from Hitchhiker’s should have made the cut. How depressing to be a mere honorable mention.

   Comment by Sara Awesome — July 2, 2008 @ 12:38 am
2. 

   Andrew please don’t watch Idioacracy again man. That movie fails on so many levels which sucks cause Mike Judge is a smart guy. I was completely baffled by this film on how bad it was.
   —————————————————

   There was also The Lewis & Clark in Event Horizon.

   Comment by swarez — July 2, 2008 @ 4:47 am
3. 

   On Idiocracy, I had some issues with it for sure (my Twitch Review Here) and I believe if Judge had another few months and another few million dollars to finish shooting all the scenes (and not need to force them together with a clumsy voice-over), It would have been a much better movie than the colouring in the margins doodle that it is - but it is still a pretty funny doodle.

   Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 6:14 am
4. 

   @ Sarah. Not sure on Andrews thinking, but ship-A.I.’s like HAL, Mother, and ALICE don’t seem to have the tangible body that one would consider a ‘robot’

   But you are right, HAL-9000 is an compelling and rich character by any yardstick!

   Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 6:50 am
5. 

   I got to side with Andrew on Wall-E, he seems to be waffling a bit back and forth but I share that sentiment… I want to love Wall-E with the same enthusiasm that Kurt does, I see the earmarks of a classic in the film, but it just is not there entirely… that said it is an enjoyable film and I could watch it again easily, but that five star film just ain’t there.

   Comment by rot — July 2, 2008 @ 8:12 am
6. 

   address issues:

   1) I did consider HAL9000 (I had him in my notes), but decided he was really just a computer, not a robot. But I suppose one could interpret HAL9000 however they want to.

   2) Idiocracy isn’t perfect. In fact it’s eye-rollingly stupid at times. But it’s kind of a nice idea and it has a lot of moments that are gut bustingly funny. PLus watch the movie for it’s details. Look at all the stuff in the background and you might be more inclined to appreciate the cleverness and effort that went into this movie.

   3) @rot. yes. Except for the watch it again part. I’d watch the first half again maybe.

   Comment by Andrew James — July 2, 2008 @ 8:36 am
7. 

   Kurt complains that Wanted is a fascist movie for wannebe-fascists, yet now watch as he casually dismisses Hot Fuzz for being a “satire” and not really glorifying fascism. Even though Hot Fuzz openly admits it is and that Fascism not only wins in the end, but is what will make people truly happy.

   Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 9:12 am
8. 

   I don’t get the fascist argument… its importing a realism into a fantasy scenario… whats the difference between Wanted and Hard-Boiled… its okay to kill hundreds of people, so long as your heart is in the right place?

   both are highly-stylized violence, they do not belong in the real world.

   Comment by rot — July 2, 2008 @ 9:53 am
9. 

   I couldn’t quite put my fingers around Kurt’s argument either and I couldn’t come up with example off the top of my head of other movies that do this (as I’m sure there are hundreds) so I sort of left it alone.

   Office Space springs to mind. Life sucks, so I’m just gonna do whatever I want to.

   Comment by Andrew James — July 2, 2008 @ 10:05 am
10. 

    Wanted tries to put forth the ‘fantasy’ of picking up a gun and indulging your assholish whims in the name of a pre-emptive strike. And the movie celebrates this completely free of satire. Go Bush. I guess I had no issue with the ‘politic’s of WallE, I don’t even think they exist, but I find Wanted to be a politically loaded ‘dumb-summer’ movie. That message doesn’t sit right with me in a comic book movie. Realistic or Not. That’s just what I saw when I watched it. And the *****SPOILER***** huge ’suicide’ moment in the film felt like the wrong side of the Middle Eastern conflict or something. I like when this is done in BattleStar Galactica, I felt icky in Wanted.

    I’m not usually a moralizer (no problem with Hard Boiled, The Killer, or whathaveyou because their message isn’t sold as wish-fulfillment). I think it is funny that Fight Club when it came out got all this flack about being a violence-inciting hate-film, yet wanted slips out of the gate, makes most of FC’s box-office in its opening weekend, and isn’t taken to task for it. Ah Well.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 10:06 am
11. 

    oh c’mon, Hard-Boiled is not wish-fulfillment? It is about being that badass who can wield a gun and blow everyone away and do it with a certain grace… its video-game-esque wish fulfillment, and so is Wanted. The story is secondary to this primary ambition to be wish fulfillment, the same in Grand Theft Auto, Doom, what have you. If you are going to moralize you should at least acknowledge John Woo is no different.

    and I ask again, its okay to kill hundreds of people so long as your heart is in the right place? how is that for morality? I think Wanted is the equivalent of Grand Theft Auto… it knows what you want and doesn’t pussfoot around.

    Comment by rot — July 2, 2008 @ 10:19 am
12. 

    Fair enough. You are taking the entire concept of violence in the cinema to task. I can’t give you a compelling (or logical) reason why Wanted bothers me and sentimental John Woo actioners (where the good guys are not complete smug assholes, and usually pay in some way for all the violence) that stuff plays like Opera, Wanted plays like any pop tart of your choice: Brittany Spears, Christina Aguilera, etc.)

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 10:38 am
13. 

    I guess I just don’t see any political message whatsoever in Wanted. I just see a big dumb actioner with style.

    PS - added the Johnny Cab clip in the show notes above. Fasten your seatbelt.

    Comment by Andrew James — July 2, 2008 @ 10:42 am
14. 

    @Kurt,

    the thing you said in the cinecast about if people can blame Oldboy for school shooting then they should blame Wanted aswell. The difference, though, is that Oldboy was far more serious than Wanted. I’m actually surprised you disliked the movie like you did - I thought you liked movies that were silly and ridiculous for the sake of it - or am I mistaken?

    Comment by Ross Miller — July 2, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
15. 

    TIFF news! As I had expected, Spike Lee’s war film is coming, also Viggo Mortensen has a film coming to the festival which makes me think it is all the more likely that The Road will make it here as well.

    Comment by rot — July 2, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
16. 

    I like them when they are silly and ridiculous (Splatter Comedies and genre-bending). But Wanted just feels wrote from a screenplay point of view, it is like the dumbest guy in the room watched Office Space, Fight Club and The Matrix and said Cool. I can copy that. Bekmambetov brings his patented cool/novel use of effects to the equation and elevates a movie that is barely worth a Direct to DVD lazy story.

    Heck, even Equilibrium and Aeon Flux (1984/BraveNewWorld for dummies) at least had the characters realize their humanity in amongst the doldrums. Here, the ‘embrace your killing android (note the title of this cinecast)’ idea was pretty reductive and insulting to me.

    WallE and Wanted are opposite in how they ‘borrow’ and attempt to ‘repurpose’ their influence. Wanted does it badly, misunderstanding or attempting (unsuccessfully) to subvert them, WallE does it very, very well.

    Oldboy (and the trilogy it belongs in) on the other hand was aiming to muse at the nature of revenge and the consequence. Wanted is wack-o wish fulfillment in the same way Ironman was. Dreadful.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
17. 

    I think Andrew mentioned this in the cinecast - I also don’t think the movie is taking itself as seriously as you think it does. I just can’t see how you can look at any of the film (save for a couple of moments here and ther) and see that it was going for seriousness. In the same way that Teeth did I felt Wanted had it’s tongue firmly lodged in it’s cheek (a term I have been using frequently as of late:P). I am like Andrew where I wasn’t taking a step back and looking at it as a whole, what messages it was giving etc and but taking it scene by scene. And even you mentioned that the movie is fantastic in that way.

    Comment by Ross Miller — July 2, 2008 @ 1:28 pm
18. 

    I don’t think the argument ‘turn your brain off and enjoy’ is a good one with Wanted. They chose to bring in the Fight-Club society downtrodden white-office-drone things. If they are going to open up that can of worms, the film should be taken to task for it.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
19. 

    See, I felt like it was just trying to show how miserable McAvoy’s character is. And they were trying to be funny about it. Not serious. The scene where he finally tells off his boss is meant to be more like a “you go girl!” moment. Besides sort of a stylistic similarity to Fight Club, I didn’t think the message was anything that but “watch this guy tell off his boss. It’s going to be kick ass. - and then nail his friend with a keyboard.”

    For me personally, I didn’t think there was anything deeper to look at than that. If that’s the criticism (that’s it’s too shallow), then fair enough. But if you think the film maker had some sort of alternate agenda going on that you didn’t agree with, I didn’t see it.

    Comment by Andrew James — July 2, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
20. 

    I agree with you, Andrew. Even though the references or homages or whatever you want to call them to Fight Club and the like I don’t it’s supposed to be taken as seriously.

    Comment by Ross Miller — July 2, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
21. 

    @Andrew - “But if you think the film maker had some sort of alternate agenda going on that you didn’t agree with, I didn’t see it.”

    nope I think the screenwriters thought they were being clever or something - i.e. they don’t have a brain in their head, and want folks to think they do, while they casually lift elements from better films and do so almost completely artlessly. I liked the Loom of Fate (but see also “Chalk of Fate” from Daywatch) and the Healing Bath (see also, Clancy Brown “MEDIC” from Starship Troopers for casual healing to enable more violence, although there it was done ironically and satirically)

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
22. 

    Movies like Robocop, Starship Troopers, and even, yes, THEY LIVE show you can be smart and ridiculously violent and have the film work…

    Wanted is all craft with nothing to say or do.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
23. 

    Kurt is avoiding the Hot Fuzz comment. What a pussy.

    The other thing is Kurt doesn’t know anything about the source material, which is essentially a comic book version of Funny Games. It glorifies violence, but it also is a big FU to the reader for enjoying it, even more so then Funny Games because it saves the reveal till the very end, rather then throughout the entire process. The comic book glorifies violence and nihilism and detachment, then blatantly mocks you for thinking that was what it was attempting to do.

    Hollywood will never make that movie, so when you attempt to water down the concept to be digestible to mainstream audiences, something is bound to be lost in the translation.

    Wesley isn’t pure evil like he is in the comic, he’s just a weenie with an inferiority complex.

    You don’t have a power struggle between super villains whose only goal is to ruin everyone else’s lives, but rather deception between those who abuse power and those who truly believe in the propaganda.

    Is there a theme that you should break away from the monotony of life and don’t allow yourself to be abused by others? Sure. But it is a monumental leap, and blatant interjection of bias, to assume Wanted is claiming the only way to do that is through picking up a gun and killing everyone who pisses you off.

    I bet Kurt hates Arnold Schwarzenegger movies too. Talk about fascism and the glorification of extreme violence run amok. Or maybe it’s just fun to watch a guy with ginormous muscles make shit blow up.

    And if Kurt starts ripping on Red Dawn (probably the most blatantly fascist action film ever made) I will have to start cracking skulls.

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
24. 

    nope I think the screenwriters thought they were being clever or something - i.e. they don’t have a brain in their head, and want folks to think they do, while they casually lift elements from better films and do so almost completely artlessly.

    But they do it in a manner that is absurdly obvious that they are cribbing. That is the joke. How can you possible rationalize an argument that they are trying to pull the wool over the audiences eyes about how intelligent they are when they blatantly reference film after film? GAH!!!

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
25. 

    @Kurt

    Take that Halfyard!

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
26. 

    Stupid Row Three not allowing me to embed You Tube videos. And where the hell is my big red arrow while I am at it?!?!

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
27. 

    I fucking hate RED DAWN. Fucking Hate that movie. Fascist piece of shit that it is, it also was the maiden voyage of the PG-13 rating. Crappola, but in hindsight, Red Dawn does play as a goofy Ed-Woodian comedy of patriotism gone amuck humour.

    “America. America!”

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
28. 

    @Matt “But they do it in a manner that is absurdly obvious that they are cribbing. That is the joke. How can you possible rationalize an argument that they are trying to pull the wool over the audiences eyes about how intelligent they are when they blatantly reference film after film? GAH!!!”

    Perhaps the joke is on me, but i don’t think so. If it sounds like shit and smells like shit, it probably is, even if it is molded into a shiny spindle toy that looks great in slo-mo.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
29. 

    I fucking hate RED DAWN.

    I mean this in the most respectful way, but in the words of the Sean Dwyer, “You are an idiot.”

    

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
30. 

    And for those of you wondering which video I was trying to embed to e-yell at Kurt.

    Enjoy.

    Comment by Matt Gamble — July 2, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
31. 

    I am a big fan of CLUE: The Movie though. I’d forgotten that Ms. Kahn was in there. That lady was a genius, pure and simple.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
32. 

    good show. I think Kurt is still dominating the talk-time, but the show flowed in a way that it wasnt distracting.

    And yes, I am gonna call Kurt out again on “Enchanted” - I think you’re being very very unfair, even hypocritical.

    1) again, you’re reviewing based on what you wanted, and not what was there
    2) you are misrepresenting what was there

    So Wall-E has elements that can be seen as biting the corporate masters hand, and you say that Enchanted “Should” have done that? What the fuck? First of all, Enchanted on a base level is only looking to make people smile, to be a satiric take on the genre and its cliches, while being a strong member of the genre at the same time. Much like Hot Fuzz was to action movies.

    Now, did Hot Fuzz have any responsibility to go beyond mocking the genre, and leaving messages against macho behaviour, sexism and violence? Fuck no, thats not what its about, and I’m not sure that Frost, Pegg and Wright really think that strongly about these things anyways. Any other satire you can think of of a particular genre, is it obliged to go beyond the jugular? Simpsons goes after FOX, biting the hand, and thats great, but that doesn’t mean The Office and 30 Rock have to go after General Electric.

    And as much as I hate the blame game because people should be responsible for their own sense of fantasy vs reality, I’d say violent film likley spurs greater negatives to the world than a princess film. Dead people are a bit more of a concern than somewhat shallow people, who simply by general societal nature of pretty people vs. ugly people, rich vs. poor, are likely to develop the same attitudes with or without Paris Hilton, Barbie and Tila Tequila.

    Going back to Enchanted, you seem to act like it actually encouraged the princess lifestyle. While it certainly didn’t disavow itself of it, and certainly celebrated decades worth of Disney films (which personally, I think Disney for the most part has the right to be proud of) through cameos and direct references, in the end Giselle’s princess-y ways couldnt land her the romance of her dreams. Dempsey’s character had to learn to be less like the way you are about Disney films, and Giselle had to develop some actual emotions, including negative ones, to become an actual person instead of an airhead cartoon character. She doesn’t become some ass kicking feminist by any stretch, but I’d say its pretty unfair to expect such a thing, to disallow girls to like girly things. Very smart women still like dresses, lipstick and flowers, it’s nothing to be upset about. Giselle doesnt walk into the world and convert everyone to the princess lifestyle so much as she tries to get people to lighten up a little bit, which is pretty much why its set in New York. Anyone who walks away from “Enchanted” with the idea that we’re supposed to conform to a Giselle-ish lifestyle isn’t paying attention.

    Comment by Good — July 2, 2008 @ 5:10 pm
33. 

    by the way, to shoot em up film fans, I’m hoping for an explanation about what gets you off about gun violence vs more unconventional methods. If i want to see violence, I want it to have some intensity. Even if its cartoonish it can still be done in a way to make you go “ooooooooooooooooh….” - the more rounds that are going off at one time, the less seriously I take it.

    Unless its a war film, in which case I’m really taking it as realism. But seriously, when it comes to guns, its usually only in westerns where they have to go through much effort to reload, and the shots ring out so loud, and the shotguns do so much damage, that I really get into it. Machine gun stuff, especially with CG rounds, you can make it look cool, but for me its very hard to ‘feel cool’. I’ll take Oldboys hammer, or a sword, bare hands fighting, knives, any day. I went to see “Wanted” for just about every reason other than gunplay.

    Comment by Good — July 2, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
34. 

    Good (I’m happy to have given you a new monicher),

    Check out the final battle in Open Range. Costner is on record as saying he amped up the sounds of the guns for the movie because dammit, guns are LOUD! And he’s right. Guns in most movies make a bang sound. In real life they make a BANG! sound. Costner gets as close to this as he can in the terrific film, Open Range.

    Comment by Andrew James — July 2, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
35. 

    I never got around to Open Range. I think that was around the time I first saw 3000 Miles to Graceland, which is a hilariously bad movie in an awesome way, but pretty much kills taking Costner seriously for a good, i mean goon, while.

    Comment by Goon — July 2, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
36. 

    Love that fight in Open range, it is clumsy and ugly and intense. The way it should be. Open Range should get more credit as a film than it seems to. Very good modern western, very good western in general! And Annette Bening in that film is a marvel.

    Comment by Kurt Halfyard — July 2, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
37. 

    Love the Open Range ending.
    The best bit was when the villagers are following the last remaining gangsters and shooting them down and they show it from a distance, which gives it a news footage feel that we see too often on TV today. Cameramen is safe distance filming violence from afar. Something about it that feels so impersonal and cold.

    Comment by swarez — July 2, 2008 @ 6:40 pm
38. 

    I’m on board with Kurt for Wall-E but definitely on side with Andrew for Wanted. I didn’t see a message behind the stylish action and frankly, I like the film’s self-righteousness. True, it doesn’t handle it a fraction as well as something like funny games but so many films are so complacent in their mediocrity - they elicit no response from the viewer either for or against - that I’m more than happy to watch a film that gets the heart pumping a little faster and plain makes me angry - and I did get a bit pissed at the opening monologue though the I didn’t mind the closing “fuck you”.

    Comment by Marina Antunes — July 4, 2008 @ 10:36 am
39. 

    Oh dear and I forgot. I haven’t seen the TV show “City of Men” but the movie certainly does not come across as something that was edited down from previously existing material. The story is not as engrossing as that of “City of God” but it still sucked me in and the film is shot in the same style of the first - it very much carries on in the tradition of the first. I didn’t love it but it’s a good and recommended watch.

    Comment by Marina Antunes — July 4, 2008 @ 10:38 am
40. 

    I have the TV series of City of Men on my shelf but have yet to watch any of it. I think I will do so before watching the film, if nothing else to draw comparison.

    Comment by Ross Miller — July 4, 2008 @ 11:48 am

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