Well, that didn’t take long. Since launching Rowthree back in November, it was my goal to do two of these ‘lets-take-a-closer-look-at-a-good-scene-and-use-it-as-an-
excuse-to-talk-about-the-movie-or-genre-or-techique’ a week as a regular feature. This was perhaps a little too ambitious (especially considering I lack the tools and expertise to rip scenes from my own DVD collection and have to instead rely on the scene in question already existing in the belly of the beast that is YouTube); things seem to average out just under once a week and that is fine.
While I’m navel gazing, it was also my intention to start a ‘neglected’ sci-fi column around these parts (I’ve got a name and a list of films, but seem to be lacking in the time and ‘muse’ factor to get it off the ground), and todays Finite Focus entry would certainly stride atop the pile.
I love the diverse selection of films form British director Michael Winterbottom. The man can effortlessly slip between styles and genres and drama and comedy (He is the thinking mans Danny Boyle), yet he has never really gotten the respect on this side of the Atlantic he deserves. One thread that runs through the bulk of his films is the effects of the ‘Global Village’ or rather the isolation and division caused by a globalized world. Whether taken head on (In This World or A Mighty Heart) or subtextualized into the film (9 Songs, The Claim) it is something that cannot be ignored in his filmography.
Now take take 2003s Code 46. Globalization forms the aesthetic and the gristle for Winterbottom’s take on a science fiction film set in the near future revolving around restricted travel, Big Brother surveillance and the laws governing cloning and reproduction. A corporate investigator (Tim Robbins, wisely subdued), perhaps the fusion of Winston Smith and Rick Deckard, gets caught up in an affair with the woman (Samantha Morton, earthy and icy) he is investigating for forging inter-zone passports (here, ‘papelles’). He gets caught in Shanghai and unable to travel back to Seattle due to his own papelles expiring. This leaves him with a complicated trio of choices: Go back to the hermetic life with his wife and kids in Seattle; Or start over as a fugitive in the glass and steel and neon wonderland of Shanghai; Or go off the grid into the free-zones of the Middle East. Like most great science fiction pictures (and this Code 46 is certainly one of these) it will take a number of years for it to be recognized as such. It is the nature of the thing with science fiction for some reason. Blade Runner, Gattaca, and Solyaris (all obvious influences on this film) all took a decade or more before receiving a little revisionist love.
Speaking of Blade Runner, doesn’t this interrogation scene below look a lot like the “Is this testing whether I’m a replicant or a lesbian, Mr. Deckard?” Voight-Kampff test? However, the contrast between the medium-shot of the opulent beauty atop the penthouse of the Tyrell Corporation monolith, we have a simple reverse-shot structure in a cramped conference room with anonymous grey steel forming the entire back-drop. The cold near-flirtation comes through in both situations however. “You want to Prompt Me?” Yes, Mrs. Morton, I do. Further in the conversation, Morton‘s character has a romantic notion of staying up all night on her birthday to avoid a dream. Of electric sheep perhaps? Yet Code 46 eschews the philosophy and goes after the morality. Similarities aside, it is it’s own self.
This later sequence in the sprawl of Shanghai has one of the most brilliant and affecting lines of dialogue (well to a parent of two kids). As Morton and Robbins continue to flirt, like something out of the silver-screen era of Hollywood, supplanted into unmistakable contemporary filmmaking, he gets on the topic of his kid (sleeping safe and ignorant halfway around the world). Morton‘s response is I bet he’s special…Everybody’s children are so special. It makes you wonder where all the ordinary grown-ups come from.” If that isn’t an outright (and right on) attack on the ‘unique snowflake’ soccer-mom child rearing philosophy, I don’t know what is. Surprises like that have a lot to say (remember, the movie also is focusing on cloning, although you’d never know it from these two clips) as science fiction is always a nice mirror for contemporary issues. And one is just a small throwaway bit, Code 46 is quite a dense movie, perhaps off putting by its icy love story and disconnected emotions. But that is kind of the point, non?
One last thing to point out in both of those clips is how the characters flip languages in mid-sentence. This happens often in the film. What a great short-hand to demonstrate just how cross pollinated the near future of Code 46 is, whilst simultaneously preventing any real connection or communication.
I absolutely love “Code 46″. I saw this in passing a few years back on the video store shelf and was surprised I’d never even heard of it. Rented it, saw it twice before taking it back and then started searching for it whenever I remembered. I finally picked it up earlier this year.
The language change is interesting and it reminded me of “Serenity” with the Chinese (though I think this film came years before “Serenity”). It just feels so natural to have that mixing of languages in the world they’re living in.
I am drawn to this film a lot, and it would make for a great hidden treasure subject but I do not so easily wave off the lack of chemistry between Morton and Robbins as being the point, it is a flaw to the film, but Winterbottom overcompensates with some stunning visuals and a plausible futuristic mono-culture.
This movie is… okay. sort of? I was disappointed in it though overall. I thought they overdid the stoicness of the characters, they were overly cold and overly unpassionate. I understand with the tone of the film and the nature of the future he had to avoid letting this thing get swept away, and thats fine, but that relationship is no Lost in Translation when it comes to well done subtlety. The chemistry just isn’t there.
And the ending feels so sudden, like there’s another act missing, and left me upset that they left me with a Coldplay song to attempt to make up for the missing emotion. Thumbs in the middle, leaning slightly down as my immediate reaction.
You know, other than 24 Hour Party People, Winterbottom has me questioning his talent – no I’m not saying he’s a hack, but I’m starting to think he’s just a middling filmmaker who needs a major injection to push his films to the next level. With 24 Hour Party People, its Coogan. It’s missing almost everywhere else. Sure, Road to Guantanamo was very good at the time but revelations of that real life story have thrown a huge wrench into what I think of the film. Not so much his fault but even so that movie lost a whole lot on rewatch. 9 Songs is a joke. Tristram Shandy is one of the worst films I’ve seen this decade. I picked up a used copy of A Mighty Heart, so we’ll see if he can swing the pendulum back for me.
I understand Danny Boyle has his own flaws which are common to his own films, but “Thinking mans Danny Boyle” is an insult to Danny Boyle and film fans in general. Winterbottom is barely in Boyle’s league yet as far as I’m concerned.
hmm… seems everyone is absent these last couple days.
Anyways, I watched A Mighty Heart today. This was a terrible film. Just terrible. Sure, Jolie can pull off the accent, but there is a specific problem with this film that ruins the entire thing – the editing. There are so many scenes of tables full of people, and while everyone can act very natural, everyone’s lines are individually shot close up, with only seconds of crosstalk in one shot, there is no shot conversation, just jumping from person to person for their one lines. This happens a lot in many films, but it happens so often in this film, that when you combine it with that style of acting and the documentaryish slight shakey cam, you do a major disservice to your film. Because of it, every one of these actors is so regularly miles away from each other, that they end up with absolutely no chemistry, and as a whole its even more stoic and cold than Code 46 was for me.
So nope, pendulum swung probably even further away for me re: Winterbottom.
Podcast still available I believe, with both Code 46 AND A Mighty Heart in the same show.
http://moviepatron.com/audiofiles/episode53.mp3
Between the two of you, I side with Andrew on this.
Listen, I love United 93, I like Spartan, I like Zodiac and most of the films Kurt referenced to defend this, but this is nowhere in the league of these films.
And then Kurt compared it favorably to the Wire. BOO.
Look, the Wire can throw names and places out very often, and even if you’re paying attention, there are regular faces you don’t know the names of until well into several seasons. It happens. But A Mighty Heart throws these names out there expecting you to keep up, but unlike the Wire, it does nothing to differentiate any of these people from each other, everyone is so generic and again, stoic – whereas on the Wire you can make your way through it because everyone has things that define them as people.
There is nothing like this in A Mighty Heart. Nothing, except for Jolie yes, sticking out like a sore thumb. She’s very good, but she sticks out like a sore thumb. I can recognize that she’s very good while at the same time saying that she doesn’t belong in this movie.
I find it funny that Kurt acknowledges in this review exactly what I was complaining about earlier. No shot lasts more than 7 seconds. Kurt says he liked the rhythm and that it felt to him like it was one take, well it didn’t feel that way to me. it felt so cut and pasted together, like there was something wrong with every take when people actually conversed. Everyone tries to act naturally but never towards or in response towards anyone else. They are all essentially floating in space, just generic alien people all working toward the same goal. They might as well be communicating in pods or over the phone with that editing style.
So anyways, while the movie may seem classy and has certain aspirations, that editing method makes it something that I would have put among the worst films of 2007. A problem with editing, a problem with actors, a problem with storytelling.
You know when people feel disconnected to a movie that throws this much at you, this excuse pops up that if you didn’t follow along, you weren’t paying attention enough. Well sometimes thats true, but sometimes its a movie getting away with not doing its job.
Being familiar with the Pearl case and sitting through this was to me like reading the Outsiders and then watching the shitty film. Just a really shitty unfinished collage of a story.
0.5/5
Further Winterbottom adventures:
I actually watched Code 46 – again – today, so thats 2 days in a row. My sister wanted to watch it (home for christmas) so we watched it on a much larger screen than I initially did. I have to admit that it is better on rewatch, the little things such as the language tics are neat, and on a bigger screen it conveys a lot more feeling and subtle emotion than you get on a tighter frame.
it really really does add a lot. if you havent seen it and you end up catching it, i guess take this as a lesson to see it as big as you can.
that said, i still don’t think the stoicness of the characters is on purpose. i think they are trying to show gravity and seriousness of the situation they are stuck in, but overdid it. and simple lack of connection between actors, which happens. if everything was on purpose, it doesnt explain how almost every minor character shows more personality than the leads.
I’m with you on this Goon, I can’t stand Winterbottom. “In this world” is dreadful.
A Mighty Heart made my top ten of 2007, I think number 7. I have only seen it once, and I was only able to see it on dvd, but I disagree with everything you said Goon, I was in awe of how perfectly edited that film was, because it would seem at first glance to be a jumble of images, and would normally probably annoy the hell out of me, but it works entirely in that film, everything had a momentum, clip, clip, clip, Jolie waiting like a time bomb to go off, clip, clip, clip, everything building, her stoicism racheting it even further, and then she breaks down and its like the whole film has been a prelude to that moment. I had zero interest in the film for its content, and even though I love Winterbottom it probably wasn’t until everybody started praising this film that I reluctantly saw it, so maybe it also has to do with having lower expectations, but I still loved this film and rank it as one of the director’s better films.
Winterbottom’s next film, Genova, is a letdown follow-up, there is scarcely any effort to it, its more an exercise than a proper film.
As for ranking must see Winterbottom:
1) Tristram Shandy
2) A Mighty Heart
3) Code 46
4) 24 Hour Party People
and dying to see his take on Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine, which I believe is in production now.
and here I’d rank the movies of his i’d seen completely in reverse, with Road to Guantanamo in between 24hPP and C46
Then I am assuming you have not seen Tristram Shandy?
Steeve Coogan at his best, and it was my #1 film of 2006. I am still not sure which film I laughed at harder in the theater, Tristram or American Movie, its very close.
Admittedly I’ve not seen a number of Winterbottom’s ‘pseudo-doc’ pictures like IN THIS WORLD or ROAD TO GUANTANAMO, but I did like A MIGHTY HEART for its tours and travels through Karachi. The story is serviceable, but the atmosphere of the city captured on film is the key point for me in that one. Also, the atmosphere in Code46 is a total selling point. I like the way the characters and actors are dwarfed in that particular world. It’s the modern version of Blade Runner for me, (another film with a ‘love story’ element that is criticized for being particularly cold).
And Rot is right on Tristram Shandy. It’s fabulously controlled chaos. I love both that film and the equally fun 24 hour party people. Thus far, it seems Winterbottom is the only director to make Coogan’s particular (TV) style to work on the big screen. (with the small exception a Jim Jarmusch’s Coffee & Cigarettes segment).
In the ongoing Boyle vs. Winterbottom debate I’ll take Winterbottoms more ethereal genre-hopping over Boyles overly kinetic genre-hopping.
All that being said, 9 Songs was an absolutely dismal failure (but I hope Winterbottom keeps experimenting!)
“Then I am assuming you have not seen Tristram Shandy?”
As I said earlier, its one of the worst films I’ve seen this decade, if not ever.
and I’m sorry I can’t go into much detail unless i give myself a refresher of the ‘plot’, its been a while and i’ve mostly chosen to forget it. What I remember is never seeing a movie so self-satisfied and smug in the way it references itself. It was just flat out obnoxious.
I think the only other British thing I’ve seen in recent memory that I hate more is the sketch series “Little Britain” – even Air Farce is good next to that crap.
anyways, if its one of your faves i’m sure you’d make a better case for it than i’d make against it. all i can say is for all its themes of being a mess, i thought it was also an actual mess. On top of that most movies I’ve ever seen about making movies and/or Hollywood have been shit, it’s just not something that works for me. So with that in mind, for example, I hate The Player, or at least the first half of it. For Your Consideration is another one I didn’t like, which a lot of people didn’t like anyways, but I’m a Guest apologist to a high degree and I couldn’t even make the effort.
Heh. I take it you don’t like ‘catch-phrase’ comedy. I tend to agree with you on that, but Little Britain is good for a giggle in small doses.
Tristram is funny because of the goofy chemistry amongst the cast, and the audacious story structure that manages to contain the chaos and allow for a host of ‘small moments’ that inform the bigger picture.
Little Britain makes me want to kill the people on TV. It reminds me of “When the whistle blows”.
Good Call Henrik, I’m sure Gervais & Merchant are taking potshots at that show. At several points in Extras Season 2 they call foul on the ‘catch phrase comedy’ in British TV.
“Heh. I take it you don’t like ‘catch-phrase’ comedy. I tend to agree with you on that, but Little Britain is good for a giggle in small doses. ”
It isn’t the catchphrases so much as almost every performer who ends up doing that style of comedy is godawful.
I am still a semi-SNL apologist. I think it has about the same crap to good ratio is has ever had, and i wade through the crap to find what i like. MADTv on the other hand might as well be America’s Little Britain – an absolutely atrocious black hole of comedy from which not even some of their more talented cast members can escape. If Will Sasso had been on SNL instead of MADTv for all those years, I think he’d still be popping up in the background of decent movies all the time.
oh, speaking of sketch shows, the only live taping i’ve ever been to was a show called the Holmes Show which used to air on CTV. The star, Jessica Holmes, went on to become part of AIr Farce, doing back Celine Dion impressions – one of hte other guys now is the star of Comedy Inc.
Ironically, in an old Kids in the Hall sketch, Comedy Inc is the name of a bad comedy troupe they’re making fun of.
Anyways, at this taping there were a lot of people and NOBODY was laughing. No one. it was awkward. they had a fluffer comic to cheer up the crowd and that didn’t go well. People would try to leave and he’d shame them back into their seats.
SO it was so bad that when it came time for it to air on CTV, I made sure to tune in and listen for the inevitable laugh track they’d have to add. I got better than that. Even though they shot this thing in a tiny studio in Toronto, smaller than half a school gym, the show opened with Jessica Holmes walking out in front of this MASSIVE audience of people whooping it up going crazy, and she did a Carol Burnett-ish intro to the show. I mean this audience was huge.
SO wow, they really went overboard to try and convince people this was worth watching. I mean, none of the people in that audience actually saw the tapings, so I wonder if they just shot 12 intros for the season and packed the audience with CTV employees and homeless people. Beats the fuck out of me.
Sketch comedy: not much, but always been a fan of “Mr. Show.”
OK about comedy:
BBC The Office, Extras, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Alan Partridge, Tristram Shandy…
they all operate on the same meta-level of comedy, they are not so much about telling jokes as about dismantling them for our amusement. I know a lot of people who watch the original Office and don’t get the joke, but the latest Will Ferrell film and they are laughing their asses off. Fine, different strokes. But if I remember right, Goon, you are a fan of most if not all of the other shows I just listed, you appreciate meta-comedy. So your opinion is that by meta standards it is not funny? I find that beyond baffling, I think it is the cleverest meta comedy I have seen, and as Kurt said the performances, particularly Rob Brydon, are a joy to watch. That said, its not just a comedy, it is visually well shot and put together, the film mutates, jumps through frames, not dissimilar from Synecdoche, meshes everything together, and has Tony Wilson interviewing Steeve Coogan, has Gillian Anderson playing her self with an American accent, has Coogan getting into a uterus (which is one, something I have never seen before on film, and two, fucking hilarious, because of the pratfall layer of it but also the intellectual conceit of it, the notion that someone would tell a cinematic story so literally). The pace of Tristram is unrelentless too, I truly think it evolves comedy, it is perhaps a comedians comedy, something that goes beyond the norm, knows the craft and one ups it.
Goon you are out of your fucking mind.
Not to mention there was a lot of improv in the film, again someone who appreciates Curb would probably appreciate, and Brydon is better at improv than Larry David and Ricky Gervais. There was an interview on BBC’s Moyles show with Coogan and Brydon and I was streaming down with tears listening to it. Coogan could not keep up with Brydon, the guy works on a different level.
Mr. Show and Kids in the Hall are my all time faves. I like Monty Python a lot but realize it may be dated now for a lot of people. Human Giant is running now and thats not bad, better than most else on tv right now though. The Ben Stiller Show had its moments, I have that on DVD. I mean many times it overdoes it or is very dated, but other things stand up really well there. David Cross and Bob Odenkirk both wrote on that show, so there’s stuff here and there that will appear to Mr Show devotees.
One SNL sketch that most people remember, Matt Foley the inspirational speaker – you know, “a van down by the river!” – played by Chris Farley – that sketch was written by Bob Odenkirk back when he wrote for SNL. if you ever watch it again you can totally tell Bob wrote it, and in fact, can picture him screaming every single line.
Kids in the Hall, also meta. They had a sketch called ‘written in haste’, and it was this meandering, ridiculous sketch and they tell you at the end that the writer had a deadline to meet and it was written at three in morning and there are spelling mistakes in the dialogue… I love that shit.
What can i say? i never laughed, and i never thought it was anywhere as near as clever as the people on screen seemed to think. its not exactly winking but it most definitely annoyed me to death with how much it went out of its way to make it clear they were doing with their film exactly what the book attemps to do with its writing. It seemed they were trying to make a tribute to the book more than something worth watching. I’ve never seen Alan Partridge but am a big fan of almost everything else you listed. In addition to those, the meta-ish comedy of the Stella troupe and some of their individual projects.
Tristram Shandy feels like ages ago, even though it was 2006. i have no idea if i’d feel different now, but my comedy tastes were already pretty much set by then. In some ways I have a very broad taste in comedy, but in other ways I am very particular about what will make me laugh. This didn’t make me laugh. It made me want to strangle them.
So sorry, unless that movies at the library or available in any other means i can see it for free, i’m avoiding it, and Its still a 0/5 from me.
also good sort-of-meta comedy
John “I’m A PC” Hodgman’s books “The Areas of My Expertise” and “More INformation than you could possibly require”. If you can find the audio book version, while truncated its filled with music from Jonathan Coulton and Hodgman’s voice adds to the experience.
Even though I’m a big Python/Gervais fan, I do actually have a bias against a lot of British comedy. I think they are very funny when being themselves in interviews or actually performing within stories or as characters. In many ways they are very much superior at the dry depressing David Brent-ish characters. I mean look at something like Withnail & I. just mindblowing. Gervais’ podcast and interviews – great. The way they play off Pilkington, astounding.
When they do improv and when they do standup however, I don’t think there’s any British comedian I like. Gervais’ standup is actually not very good at all, and I hated the day I learned that. Eddie Izzard is awful. Even Billy Connelly, considered a legend. Don’t like his standup, but put him in a movie and he’ll always stand out.
I just now went on youtube to look at a few Shandy clips, and the same feeling of bile just came out my throat. There’s simply absolutely nothing funny happening anywhere.
Has anyone besides me ever watched The Dana Carvey Show?
For comedy, I highly recommend Casper & The Monkeyarrangement, but it would for the most part require that you know danish. Here is a part that speaks universally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6BxWvV35wg&feature=related
I have all the Dana Carvey Show eps as .avis on my computer, except the first episode with the infamous Bill Clinton sketch
back to the Shandy thing, if people want a meta-ish movie with film and writing storyline, I’d run to Adaptation or Kiss Kiss Bang Bang instead.
There were several in-jokes in Tristram about Coogan’s Alan Partridge, a character he is renowned for in Britain. Alan is the worst talk show host, and all of the comedy derives from the meta-discomfort of seeing someone so bad think he is so good. David Brent owes a lot to Partridge. I was not a big fan of the second season of Partridge’s Knowing Me Knowing You, but the first has some great stuff.
here is a taste:
A Partridge in Paris:
Okay, so I watched that first video and I was in full on pain. not funny to me.
I get the joke, but to me its just as bad/annoying as Martin Short’s Jiminy Glick.
figures.
for the record, I enjoyed Short’s Glick, but yeah sure its like any SNL character really, the longer it goes on, the less funny it becomes… one season of Partridge was enough for me…
It also reminds me of Dame Edna, for better or worse. Again, sketch show type characters that end up hosting a full fake program can be annoying. I mean I like Sacha Baron Cohen, but his format was about using the characters to trick people as well as being sort of funny. When the character alone was meant to be funny (Ali G Indahouse), it turned out terrible.
If a character is going to be a TV show host, I’d rather it be like how Stephen Colbert has done it, essentially being a regular person with exaggerated satirical views who is simply pompous. No funny wigs, no funny faces, no putting on a fake voice for an extended period of time. A character like Partridge or Glick to me is something I eventually see Mike Myers doing, and to me it will probably seem just as sad to me.
I can recognize the sort of talent that would have to go behind putting up such a show, but something very unique would have to happen for me to enjoy it.
Ultimately these kinds of characters are too one-dimensional to carry a series. They usually only work in movies when you supply a shitload of supporting characters, make the whole thing essentially a cartoon, or the usual solution – put them in a road movie.
I must be feeling less brash today, I am using the phrase ‘to me’ all the time, including twice in one sentence.
Must be the spirit of christmas!
I see no substantial difference between what Colbert does and what Partridge does, again, Partridge was the prototype for this kind of uberego talk show host. Maybe it is the laugh track that irks you? my favorite clips from the show are not on youtube, there is some great ‘banter’ between Partridge and his band leader which is just as discomforting as the sort of stuff David Brent pulls off decades later. Maybe you just dislike Coogan altogether?
The people that make me laugh the hardest are
1) Karl Pilkington
2) Ricky Gervais
3) Rob Brydon
4) Larry David
5) Jermaine from Flight of the Conchords
Their comedy is subtle, often accidental, indirect, spontaneous, it is what I love the most about comedy… Coogan’s comedy particularly with Partridge comes largely from the other kind, there is effort to make you laugh, but I still find him funny, same with Martin Short, and Kids in the Hall.
SNL is the lowest rung of comedy.
Jermain and Rob Brydon do indeed Rule. Pilkington is funny mainly because Merchant and Gervais are constantly pushing stuff and over-emphasizing stuff that comes from him. All great entertainment though
It is true that Pilkington only works in combination with Merchent and Gervais, I listened to a radio stint he did with Russell Brand on BBC and it was awful… he has a particular comfort zone where his unique comedy comes from. He is like a comedy savant.
Brydon works at it, but makes it look effortless, and I admire that a lot.
all this talk has convinced me to rewatch Tristram tonight.
Goon, I defy you to find this unfunny:
@ It’s fabulously controlled chaos.
I call bullshit. First of all your just trying to sound insightful by mixing two words with contrary meanings. Secondly you used the word “fabulously”.
I used to loath SNL but Andy Sandberg has been doing some funny stuff as of late. Amy Poehlert is good too.
I was into the Conchords long before they hit America.
I’m telling you, most of this stuff you’re listing is big with me.
“Partridge was the prototype for this kind of uberego talk show host.”
Colbert is himself amped up, and the conservatism is in a way, just him being sarcastic for the length of each program. It’s actually closer to his own personality than a true character, and if i want to look at it as a character its a more completely fleshed out one than anything like it before. What I see of this Partridge thing seems extremely one note and barely removed from a Fat Bastard or Austin Powers. It’s putting on too much. You could convince people David Brent is real, you could convince people the characters in FUBAR are real, there still are a lot of people convinced that Colbert is actually a conservative who is just also trying to be funny. I don’t think you could fool a single person that Partridge is anything other than a fool. ANd of course I’m saying this only seeing one clip. But it very much came across that way.
“SNL is the lowest rung of comedy.”
I absolutely disagree. I really put most British comedy on a lower rung, and for that matter, almost all inter-Canadian broadcast comedy. All our satire winks to much, so much ironic disconnection to what they’re doing, amateurish production. Comedy inc, Nikki Payne, Russel Peters, Sean Cullen, Air Farce, and yes, Rick Mercer. I’m embarrassed of all of them. Even Trailer Park Boys. Even Corner Gas. All of it. Oh god, memories of Mike Bullard. Shoot me.
More with SNL, when you consider it being done live and being written within a week, it is extremely unfair to compare it to say, a Mr. Show who only ever put out 30 episodes spanning several years (and as much as I am a fan of theirs, its not like they batted a thousand either). When you have to sit down and make a list of the best comedy sketches ever, SNL’s best stand up with anything you can throw out there, and would overwhelm not only because of quantity, but because when there’s good stuff, people take it for granted. if you can hold KITH in high regard, ther is absolutely no reason to neglect SNL’s catalogue of material.
Writing sketches/good improv to me simply seems a lot harder than sitting down and meticiulously over a long period of time hatching a moderately amusing script. And when it comes to sketches and improv, Americans are far superior.
I liked Russell Brand in Forgetting Sarah Marshall, but get the feeling that if i paid any attention to anything else he ever did, I’d hate him. He seems like the UK’s answer to Pauly Shore.
Moving into standup – just because, for me Bill Hicks is the Master. For current comics its Patton Oswalt, David Cross, Eugene Mirman, Michael Ian Black, Michael Showalter and Doug Stanhope. I have no idea how so many standups manage to make a living.
Good/great standup is something I place among the highest rungs of comedy. But the vast vast majority of it on the other hand is at the very very bottom rung. But I guess you gotta start somewhere.
“I used to loath SNL but Andy Sandberg has been doing some funny stuff as of late.”
Samberg is part of another troupe (the other two members are now SNL writers) called the Lonely Island. at thelonelyisland.com they have a bunch of other material including some pilots they’ve done and web videos pre-SNL. They’re considerably more alternative than what usually goes on SNL, not far removed from Human Giant.
ANother sketch group I forgot to mention is the Whitest Kids U Know, which doesnt air in Canada. I’ve seen some clips on the web that were really good, but i have no idea how it holds together as a full show.
One more thing re: KITH
If you weren’t aware, they are in the middle of producing a miniseries. its not a sketch series, its an actual 8 episode continuous story, but they’re playing every single character. Sounds promising and i hope it works out.
“Maybe you just dislike Coogan altogether?”
I loved him in 24 Hour Party People, which was my first notice of him altogether. I’ve seen him turn up in the background of a lot of crap where he’s been a nonentity (Tropic Thunder) or mildly amusing (A Night at the Museum, not a particularly good or bad movie but he’s okay in it). So, like Eddie Izzard, where he’s been Acting with a capital A I’ve found him very good and funny where needed (Izzard is quite good in “the Riches”), but whenever either is doing anything remotely wacky or overly character based, I can’t even watch.
No Galifinakis Goon? I can’t think of a better standup comic working right now.
Yeah I like Zach Galifinakis, but I”m pissed he doesn’t have a proper album. Jim Gaffigan is pretty good so long as he’s talking about food. Sarah Silverman is good overall, but her songs aren’t funny and she relies a lot on the same few things. Oh, and I totally forgot Brian Posehn. His album is kind of meh, but the material I’ve heard from him on the Comedians of Comedy dvd is stellar. He’s only going to get better.
I watched some more Coogan clips of other things. Tony Ferrino.
Yeah, I hate this. It’s typical of a lot of things I hate about British comedy. Besides “where the whistle blows” type shows, there are so many cases of people making alter-egos, playing dressup and assuming the concept will carry them through, and that they don’t actually have to make jokes. That simply being silly is enough. That’s a lot of British comedy in a nutshell. It’s not my thing.
Obviously, you could condense and insult all of american comedy into that three camera sitcom and Dane Cook’s douche-style battle of the sexesstandup. And reduce Canadian comedy into bad digital camera shot programming and overly polite political satire.
It seems the great comedy from each country allows itself to be influenced by its surroundings, but at the same time has enough scorn for it to subvert and make fun of it. I see Ricky Gervais & co and Simon Pegg & co doing just that, this Coogan stuff I’m wading through looking for a nugget from is way too familiar.
I just thought of a ‘character comedian’ you might compare to Partridge or Ferrino that I love who puts a wrench in my rant:
Neil Hamburger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5NOt3ClPKA
“More with SNL, when you consider it being done live and being written within a week”
So SNL is cool, but South Park is not? I thought you were the guy taking a stand for animation to be accepted, what about borderline improv animation then?
Yeah I like Zach Galifinakis, but I”m pissed he doesn’t have a proper album
I don’t think his style would ever truly fit with an album though. He churns through so much stuff and improvs so much on the fly I just don’t know if it would work.
And while I love Izzard I have to agree with Goon that American comedy destroys any other countries and it isn’t very close.
“South Park is not? I thought you were the guy taking a stand for animation to be accepted, what about borderline improv animation then?”
I can appreciate that they can whip together the animation that fast, but the actual script for me these days isn’t good enough to air. There’s no jokes, just repeated catchphrases and situations, most of which are lifted from movies they saw recently anyways. The speed they throw things together compounds existing problems with their writing to begin with.
“I don’t think his style would ever truly fit with an album though.”
I generally prefer comedy on album, its simply a personal preference of imagining the situations or the comedians expressions rather than seeing a guy on stage – even if its a guy as funny looking as Zach.
Brian Posehn definitely benefits from the physical presentation. Dmitri Martin, who i’m so-so on, pretty much requires visuals to be good.
I also just noticed I made the crime of neglecting Chris Rock. He really is damn good. I’m not so big on Dave Chappelle though, and never got why he was so well praised. He had some of the most successful sketches of this decade, but really he was a lot more dependant on catchphrases than the worst SNL skits, and a whole lot of his sketches didn’t even have jokes. Yeah, Dave Chappelle is definitely one American comic I found to be extremely overrated.
“There’s no jokes, just repeated catchphrases and situations, most of which are lifted from movies they saw recently anyways.”
How is it different from SNL? I haven’t seen much of it, but it seems to me that it’s usually poking fun of current events through sketches ranging from shit to above-average funny. I mean I’ll take Randy Marsh’s “Obama Yeah!” over that cringing There Will Be Blood No Country For Old Men Juno sketch that was on the internet at last years oscars.
You ask how is it different from SNL, but cite one sketch from the very very end of an episode that aired last year. Not much of a case.
Again like I said, SNL has jokes. South Park doesn’t. They have characters that say the same exact insults they’ve been saying to each other for a decade within each new situation.
Lots of them, including a weekend update which is about the length of several days worth of late night host monologues. Also, each ep is around three times the length of South Park.
South Park isn’t alone as a praised show that relies on the same old shit all the time. Robot Chicken is an occasionally funny show, but when you break it down absolutely every single thing boils down to grabbing 80s characters and making them fuck or kill each other. Both of these shows have gotten to the point that I believe any average fan could write an episode, and I mean that as an insult because of all shows, I tend to notice the biggest South Park and Robot Chicken fanboys are just a step above retarded. I mean Henrik, you were mocking Kevin Smith fans, but in the stupidity department they’ve got nothing on the people still wearing Cartman shirts in 2008.
I definitely think South Park is more intelligent than Clerks 2, and has much better acting. More charming characters, and more biting satire.
I do roll my eyes if I see people wearing a Cartman shirt though, I’m all for showing your colors, but not in the most obvious made-in-chinese-sweatshop way. I mean have a cool T-Shirt with some obscure-yet-recognizable-to-and-loved-by-fans quote or something, and I won’t think you’re an idiot. This goes for everything though, it has nothing to do with wether or not I’m a fan of the shit. I scoff at people who wear Jean-Luc Picard shirts as much as people who wear Lebowski shirts.
For SNL, I have also seen the Lindsay Lohan Harry Potter sketch, and recently the Sarah Palin sketches. Haven’t laughed yet though.
For stand-up I like the american blacks quite a bit, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy and Chris Rock. Chris Rock had a funny joke about George W. Bush, that he fucked up so much a black man gonna be president. Pretty good.
Grew tired of stand-up very fast when it hit big here though, now it’s at the point where any talentless stand-up comedian throws up in a basket and pop! it’s in dvd stores everywhere.
” and has much better acting.”
the worst acting in any Kevin Smith movie, and theres a lot to choose from, outdoes the 3 voices Matt and Trey are capable of doing to somehow fill up an entire town. I think one of the reasons I grew sick of SOuth Park and became able to notice all the little things I hated was having to hear the same 3 fucking voices for ten years. Seth Macfarlane has a similar problem, but compared to Matt and Trey, its like Peter O’Toole vs. Paris Hilton.
Yeah I was following Lonely Island before Sanberg hopped onto the SNL gravy train, that was some funny shit.
Whether or not American comedy shows are better than British, my favorite comedians are by and large British… I would also add Jonathan Ross, a talk show host who has a sharp wit, Russell Brand has moments of genius, Hell Monty Python’s Life of Brian is one of the funniest films ever made. The British use of language, their sardonic self-deprecation is far more advanced.
but the one British show I do not understand is Fawlty Towers, that is When the Whistle Blows.
Add to the list of British comedic actors I like, Dylan Moran and Simon Pegg.
Looking at funniest tv shows, BBC Office, no question.
Embarrased german visitor: “Why do you keep talking about the war?”
Basil Fawlty: “Well you started it!”
Embarrased german visitor: “We did not.”
Basil Fawlty: “Yes you did, you invaded poland!”
That is fucking classic. John Cleese is great in that show, and they didn’t run it into the ground either.
I think for funniest TV show, I would say BBC Office as well. One of the best ever.
“the worst acting in any Kevin Smith movie, and theres a lot to choose from, outdoes the 3 voices Matt and Trey are capable of doing to somehow fill up an entire town.”
I disagree I think the voices are funny, and it’s cool to not give a shit about it and just voice it all yourself. It goes with the animation style. I guess these elements may have grown tired for you, but that doesn’t mean the show has gotten worse.
I think John Cleese is a great comedic performer but Fawlty Towers is groan worthy stuff, the British equivalent of Three’s Company.
This may be more controversial stuff, but the vibe I get from something like Fawlty Towers is an adult one. This is definitely something I get from the good european artists, a sense that even when they’re being childish, they are being childish the way an adult indulges, which is a sense I hardly ever get from overseas – mostly the stuff is the exact opposite, even when they try to be adult, they’re being adult the way a child is adult. Exceptions though! Tim Burton, Alexander Payne.
What I’m talking about is an element like Salieri liking sweets in Amadeus. Childish in an adult way. Americans don’t seem to care about stuff like that for the most part.
I also think Kevin Kline did a brilliant job in A Fish Called Wanda, the british adult way of poking fun at american childishness. A deserved Oscar© for him.
I don’t hate Fawlty Towers, and don’t think its as bad as Where the Whistle Blows one bit, but I do think its been overrated.
I can’t list a whole lot of BBC shows I’ve liked, but I really do like Spaced, and I have a soft spot for the Young Ones, which is a sitcom, but just fucked up enough for me not to notice. It’s so loose and doesn’t exactly follow the logical line through any episode.
“What I’m talking about is an element like Salieri liking sweets in Amadeus. Childish in an adult way. Americans don’t seem to care about stuff like that for the most part.”
Not sure what you mean here, but Amadeus won best picture that year. If you’re saying americans dont like scenes like that, well apparently quite a few did.
Not sure if they like them or not, but they just don’t seem to be able to capture that sort of idea right. Except for a guy like Woody Allen when he’s at his best I guess. And other guys. I think it comes down to having a certain sense of humor as well, which obviously will be very different from all sorts of people.
No love for vintage SCTV? So much good stuff. Deadpan smack-downs of media, media constuction, celebrity, and even American to European art films (From Bergman to Polanski to Scorcese). So much great stuff in there.
Gerry Todd (Rick Moranis) was making fun of VIDEO before MTV was even on the air. Which gives it the distinct feel of parodying something that people are not even aware of in the mainstream. That kinda stuff was woven thru SCTV. It was the only sketch show I am aware of that had ‘narrative arcs’ like how much Johnnie LaRue’s “CRANE SHOT” in his fictional rip off of CHINATOWN cost the station. And the ongoing interoffice politics and positionings of the ‘characters’ a la Earl Camembert, Floyd Robertson (also Count Floyd introing bad horror flicks), Guy Caballero, Edith Prickley, Lola Heatherton, and Sammy Maudlin.
I’m not so big on Dave Chappelle though, and never got why he was so well praised.
Chapelle was a standup legend a decade before he ever got his show. His battle skills are legendary. He’s similar to Rickles or Burle in that you can throw them into a sketch and they’ll practically will it into being humerous, but that isn’t where their strength lies.
To this day Chapelle has told the best Your Momma joke I’ve ever heard and it was as much his delivery and holding out such a weak style as his finale to a battle that sold it so well.
I’m guessing Goon hates Maria Bamford who I think is one of the best comics working right now.
(I find it amusing that a thread on glacially paced globalized science fiction has evolved into a thread on standup and sketch comedy.)
I grew up with SCTV and am apologetic for it despite the fact that a great many sketches from it have not aged well.
I don’t HATE hate Chappelle. I actually really like Half Baked even though I’m not a pothead and otherwise hate weed humor. I actually bought the Chappelle’s Show DVDs before seeing a single ep solely on reputation, and all I can say is I was really let down. I actually think he’s an excellent performer and has an extremely funny voice – but I simply feel his actual standup and sketch material is weak, and at best overrated.
I have the Comedians of COmedy DVD, and I’d heard much of Bamford simply because the crowd she runs with are the elites of the underground comics – Posehn, Galifianakis and Oswalt – but yeah, I didn’t like her set at all, at least on this DVD – she was overdoing this insane character and her whole bit was like a really bad MADTv segment. She reminded me of Jill Talley, except that she didn’t make me laugh.
But again, like I said, that may be just be on that DVD. I mean theres a number of comics on that disc that didn’t bring their A-game. I love David Cross and H. Jon Benjamin (Coach McGuirk on Home Movies) but their skit together on that disc is horrid.
In between typing that last post I watched some Maria Bamford sets on youtube. And then I watched some backstage “just hanging out” bits of her with Patton and the others.
I think I understand why I don’t like her sets. In the backstage videos she’s a completely different person, laid back, just riffing with people, and she was funny. On stage she’s seriously – overpeforming – changing her voice dramatically every 15 seconds, overdoing eye expressions, basically, being a character instead of herself. I am guessing she’s actually trying for some bizarre off-putting thing, but it just doesn’t work for me, and none of the actual jokes were particularly good.
I hate saying that there are very few good female comedians, but seriously – what the fuck. There are very few good female comedians. I already forgot the name of the girl who won Last Comic Standing last season. That show drives me up the wall, but the hyperactive girl that won it was actually pretty damn good, and the more explicit sets she does for actual clubs instead of on TV were significantly better.