Row Three » LOST Discussion Thread 2.0 - Where Cinema is more than just $100 Million productions

LOST Discussion Thread 2.0

by Andrew James
March 13th, 2008

For those of you interested in continuing to talk about everything LOST, here is the second thread to help keep everything up to date and easier to keep track of. Probably best to use this thread from now on and let the old thread die.

Same rules apply as last time: There are many people out there who haven’t yet experienced LOST (the best one-hour drama television show of all time) in any capacity as of yet and are planning to, or there may be some people who are in the midst of catching up with the show on DVD. So obviously the concern here is spoiling things for people who aren’t caught up. Discussing the show to your heart’s content in this thread is welcomed and encouraged, but we here at Row Three (especially me) take spoilers very seriously;

so a few RULES and WARNINGS - these WILL BE ENFORCED:

RULES:
show

1) To newcomers of “LOST:” This discussion is current and up to date and anything discussed in the comment section below may and will include any plot summary, character development, etc. etc. as of the latest publicly aired episode on network television. In other words, once an episode has aired in its entirety on ABC (in any time zone), it is fair game to discuss anything that has happened up to and including that point.

2) Recent comments here at RowThree.com show up on the right side of the page with the first sentence or two of each comment for the world to see. It’s hard to miss. So if you plan on posting in this thread, you have two options:

- - A) If you’ve been around here before and know what you’re doing, make sure there is NOTHING REMOTELY SPOILERIFIC in the first couple lines of your text. The RETURN KEY DOES NOT WORK FOR COVERING SPOILERS in the recent comments!!! You must have a certain number of text characters to buffer your spoilers.

- - B) If you’re not sure if what you have to say is spoilerific or not sure how the process works exactly, play it on the safe side and copy and paste the following emboldened text AT THE BEGINNING of your comment. If you follow this rule (the smart thing), there shouldn’t be any problem:

THIS COMMENT MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS
**************
LOST DISCUSSION
**************
RECENT COMMENTS BUFFER
**************

3) Discussing any past shows, up to and including the most recently aired show is fair game. If you have some inside information on future episodes or know something about a future episode and wreck it for the rest of us, your comment may be deleted - that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t hypothesize of what you think is going on or what may happen in the future. By all means, feel free to share your thoughts or predictions. But if you write: “I got a stolen script from my friend who’s an extra and it says that ’so and so’ is going to die in episode 14,” your comment will be deleted - and it will piss me off.

4) Co-writer, Kurt, needs to be watching this show pronto.

5) I’m not a fascist and I hate to be a hard-ass. That’s not my intention; but if these simple rules are ignored or broken, I do have the power and right to either edit or delete your comment. If it becomes a continuous problem, I can ban you from commenting in the future or even removing this entire thread/post altogether. That would suck.

6) If you come across something you find objectionable or have any questions at all, feel free to email me immediately and I’ll answer your question or make a quick and decisive judgment on the matter at hand.

7) I think that’s it. If you can think of something I missed, by all means, let me know. Otherwise, have fun and I’ll see you on the island.

@ “(the best one-hour drama television show of all time) ”

where do you come up with this stuff? Last week weren’t you saying you didn’t like this season? Next week it’ll be “unprecedented action driven plotting that is the greatest Thursday show of all time!!!!”

Thanks for the new thread. We’ll try not to use it up like last time.

Comment by Rusty James — March 13, 2008 @ 7:09 pm

Just finished The Wire. I’ll throw-down for that show, as there is not a single weak episode in 5 seasons worth of TV. It brings multithreaded TV Drama to it’s pinnacle really. It’s like a pitcher throwing a perfect game, the culmination of skill and circumstance.

Sorry to threadjack….back to where you were.

Comment by Kurt — March 13, 2008 @ 8:40 pm

I liked this weeks episode. I hear its been getting very divided reactions.

No spoilers here, I’ll talk later when I think about it some more.

Comment by Goon — March 13, 2008 @ 8:50 pm

The Wire is the most consistently enjoyable show I have ever seen. I still contend that the Sopranos is still the best character study… and Lost, the best unravelling mystery.

Comment by rot — March 13, 2008 @ 9:12 pm

The episode was ok, at least there was the semblance of community depicted on the beach, people actually speaking openly with one another about what has happened, unlike the lame secretiveness used to propel the plot in the last ep.

for those who have not been listening to any of the lost podcasts out there, thought I would pass along two interesting tidbits about ‘The Other Woman’ ep. First, the symbol of the ‘Tempest’ hatch was a tidal wave…. and I’m pretty sure it was not accidental this image would appear on the exact day in which the tsunami hit (we saw the calendar in the ep before). Then there is the name ‘The Tempest’… a lot of parallels about what may be happening on the island with the Shakespeare play of the same name. Let’s just say Ben makes for a perfect Prospero.

Comment by rot — March 13, 2008 @ 9:19 pm

All you dudes need to watch Scenes From A Marriage (since this thread has been opened for 1hour TV drama suggestions). It’s definitely better than Lost/The Wire/The Sopranos. But as you were…

Comment by Henrik — March 13, 2008 @ 10:58 pm

I’m not sure I see the Wire as ‘consistently enjoyable’ the same way others do. I know most people find the first eps of each season as gripping as the end, but each season i find myself starting from scratch forcing myself through the new arc’s introduction and being wrapped into it by the time episode 5 rolls around. I think I’d have to rewatch the first couple after the fact to appreciate them properly.

The first time I rented the Wire, I went months before renting the second disc… it felt enough like nothing happened in the first couple episodes for me to doubt whether it was a show I actually gave a crap to see it through… I am glad I gave it a chance, however I think for many people they didn’t get very far - most people want more instant satisfaction, and maybe this explains why the show doesn’t get more recogition…

Comment by Goon — March 14, 2008 @ 12:40 am

btw Kurt, sooner or later you are going to have to finally hit Six Feet Under… now that show with its gimmicks, I was thoroughly entertained by its pilot but still wondered how it would remain watchable, how it would avoid getting played out. The characters are simply so strong that more than any show I had to fly through all the episodes as fast as possible.

Comment by Goon — March 14, 2008 @ 12:42 am

yeah but Six Feet Under is one of those shows that started strong and was not consistent in later seasons. If instant satisfaction is what you need then I guess Lost is the show for you, but it is formulaic in its rationing of doses of satisfaction, The Wire feels completely new because it does not conform to traditional arcs… characters come and go, story lines are interrupted and seem to organically progress, there are virtually no cliffhangers… what is captivating about the show is the characters and the authenticity of their relationships.

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 5:59 am

@Henrik,

Scenes from a Marriage is on Criterion and as I am attemptting to see all of them I will eventually make my way to this. Look forward to it, but the miniseries is only 6 episodes… hard to compare to 48 episodes or more.

My favorite miniseries is Band of Brothers.

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 6:58 am

So I admit to liking last night’s episode. I’ve been aching for a Sun and Jin episode for quite some time. However…

It felt like they were focussed on Sun and Jin to just get them out of the way. Writing crew realized they hadn’t used them properly (or at all) in over 10 episodes (which is part of the reason Lost is bugging me lately) - they just disappeared.

Now we know what happens to them and their baby. So really, unless they’re used as pawns for something or the storyline takes some new turn, we don’t really ever need to see them again - from a story standpoint. So I felt like the episode last night was just to get them out of the way so the writers can focus on the main thrust of the story.

ALSO,

So now we are for sure on the Oceanic six right (like it matters)?

Sun
Jin
Kate
Jack
Hugo
Aaron (?)

I don’t think Sayid is one of them.

Comment by Andrew James — March 14, 2008 @ 8:39 am

nope

Sun
Kate
Jack
Hugo
Aaron
Sayid

if you go by what the voice-over guy says on the upcoming eps, these would be the Oceanic six because each said ‘we will find out a new member of the Oceanic Six’… with the last ep… not member’s, but the final one.

I’m anticipating a crazy spin on Jin’s story… something along the lines of Michael.

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 8:45 am

also we know Ben wants their baby so I think it is going to be an integral part of the story

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 8:47 am

Do we know for sure Sayid is an Oceanic six member or are you just predicting that? Becaue unless they specifically said he is one, I don’t hink he is. He’s too covert and too busy off shooting people to be a national celebrity. Can’t rember though. Maybe they did mention it.

Come to think of it, when he sat down with the lady in the restaurant, she recognized him immediately, so I think I’m wrong now that I think back.

Comment by Andrew James — March 14, 2008 @ 9:25 am

the voice-over guy said we learn the identity of one of the oceanic six, that and Sayid states in the first scene he tells the guy on the golf course he is part of the oceanic six… and the guy freaks out.

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 10:17 am

Totally.

Another thought just occurred to me. Do we know for sure that Jin’s stuff last night were all flash forwards? I was thinking that Sun’s were all flash forwards, while Jin’s were all flashBACKS. Just a thought.

Comment by Andrew James — March 14, 2008 @ 10:24 am

that would be cheap if it was, but then again it does seem that way.

Comment by rot — March 14, 2008 @ 10:50 am

@ Andrew James,

Yeah Jin’s scenes were all flashbacks. Remember he said to the nurse that he has only been married for two months. So I think that confirms that his scenes were in fact flashbacks and Sun’s were flashforwards.

About Michael being on the boat - do we take it that he is in fact Ben’s man? He had a different name which I think was an undercover one given by Ben to him. But what I don’t get about that is wouldn’t the guys on the freighter recognize him as being Michael, from the manifest etc, and not “Kevin“? I think Sayid and Desmond knew, going by Michael’s eye contact etc, that he was undercover in some way and they just played along. But there is still two questions unanswered about that:

1. Why is Michael working for Ben?

2. How are they getting inforamtion back and forth to each other without the people on the freighter knowing about it?

Also a thing about Ep 7 - what the hell was up with Regina (awesome to see Zoe Bell get some work after the awesome Death Proof)? Did she in fact kill herself? It’s funny that they would have her voice over the sat phone and have her name in the credits for 7 episodes and then just kill her. Perhpas we will see more flashbacks from the freighties point of view soon.

And just generally about this episode - I really liked it. That’s two reall heartfelt, character centric episodes in a row and even though it does just seem like they are getting them out of the way so that they can now concentrate on the main plot threads it still is great to see the show getting back to what it was in Season 1.

Comment by Ross Miller — March 14, 2008 @ 12:41 pm

Oh yes, forgot to mention the Zoe Bell love. Saw her and said to my friend, “Holy shit! It’s Zoe Bell!” And she said, “who?”

Comment by Andrew James — March 14, 2008 @ 3:13 pm

the psyche out this episode was pretty cheap. I hope the next run starts with a Michael episode.

Comment by Rusty James — March 14, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

I agree it’s really reaching to deny that Sayid is one of the O6 but you can’t necessarily go by what the voice over guy says. The creators don’t have much say in the marketing. In the past they’ve expressed frustration over the matter.

Comment by Rusty James — March 14, 2008 @ 8:34 pm

Meet K. Johnson. Best episode ever?

Comment by Rusty James — March 21, 2008 @ 8:33 am

do we assume that Ben put on the hit at the end of episode?

they really did need to kill off characters, far too many hanging around.

Comment by rot — March 21, 2008 @ 11:27 am

rot, since we saw people on the boat shooting guns, expertly at that, and since we know that Frank had left on the helicopter earlier without Sayid/Desmond’s knowledge, that the people shooting are the people on the boat

The war has begun, and the Boatmen are there.

Comment by Goon — March 21, 2008 @ 2:40 pm

It was a great ending. I hadn’t thought of it like that but it definitely makes more sense that it was the boat people. It’s just not Ben’s MO.

Comment by Rusty James — March 21, 2008 @ 8:02 pm

Wow, Episode 8 was such a great episode. I think after “The Constant” people were a bit underwhelmed by the more character, less action centric episodes that “The Other Woman” and “Ji Yeon” were. But this one brought the story driven interest way back up.

I think they explained how Michael came to be on the boat and why pretty much perfectly. They have used the idea that Michael is a man of honour and a man who will do pretty much anything for his son. I was wondering for ages before this episode why the hell would Michael even consider doing anything for Ben etc. But I think the whole “redeem yorself and save the losties” thing was a great way to explain why he would be doing what he’s doing.

What I also loved about this episode is that it is revealed a lot more suspicions (that I, for one, have had for a long time) that the Others, and more specifically Ben, is not as bad as we once thought. It was just the fact that we didn’t know anything about any of them and thus there actions (out of context or without knowing the whole picture) seemed evil. And the thing with Ben and Juliette; that is just a personal thing. Everyone has flaws, albeit his are a bit more extreme that mosts, but it doesn’t really mean he is evil like we one thought. At the end of season 3 he said if you make that call “everyone on this island will be killed”. Now I at first thought he meant HE would end up killing them once he escapes or he was just bluffing to get what he wanted. But now we know that because Michael was communicating with him (and finally his ability to do that without the freighties knowing is explained) Ben knew the plan of the people on the boat; to kill everyone on the island after they’ve captured Ben. What I’m wondering now is; does Charlotte and Daniel know abut this plan to kill everyone? Especially the latter? I mean I don’t think he would knowingly go to the island to do that, he doesn’t seem like the kind of person.

Oh! @Goon,

Holy shit man I hadn’t thought of it like that either. I just assumed it was Ben’s people that shot at Alex etc. But you’re right; the people from the freighter would have seen Alex, Danielle and Karl and not recognized them as part of the surivors group and just killed them. When Alex gets up and sais “I’m Ben’s daughter” I think the freighties will come out and use her as bait to capture Ben. The story/action centic stuff is going to be turned up to 11!

(And we have to wait until April 24th!:()

Comment by Ross Miller — March 22, 2008 @ 5:14 am

Something I was just mulling over while trying to get to sleep last night; if the Oceanic 815 plane was found and we now know it was staged then does this mean that Mr Widmore OWNS Oceanic Airlines? I mean if he was the one who staged it, and as far as we all know he did, then why did Oceanic go along with it? I mean we know that the creepy black guy (can’t remember his name so until I do or find it out that’s what his nickname is:P) SAID he was from Oceanic Airlines (as a lawyer) but then we seen him talking to/recruiting Naomi. So this all leads me to believe that Widmore does in fact own Oceanic Airlines (think about it - do we actually KNOW what his business is? We only have seen the fact that he works in a big building and is very, VERY rich. I imagine to own an airline you would have to be:P).

So that’s my new theory for the time being……thoughts?

Comment by Ross Miller — March 23, 2008 @ 10:13 am

well… I don’t see how one follows from the other. You don’t have to be in cahoots with Oceanic to stash a plane in the bottom of the drink.
However, it was strongly implied that Widmore sent Desmond to the Island intentionally. If that’s the case I suppose it’s not too far to suppose he also sent the 815ers there via his airline. Though him sending people to the island at will seems inconsistent with what we’ve learned.

Btw, does everyone still hate Michael? I never minded him and I think this latest episode makes him out to be a really tragic character. He’s got a compelling arc right now.

Discuss.

Comment by Rusty James — March 23, 2008 @ 8:09 pm

@ Goon:

“The war has begun…”

Great quote. I am anticipating the second half of the season very much. But I’m still waiting until the end to watch them all back to back.

While I like discussing and seeing what other people’s thoughts are, the show itself will be much more enjoyable watching it as one long “cinematic” experience.

Just my opinion.

Comment by Andrew James — March 23, 2008 @ 11:07 pm

@Rusty James,

The reason I say he would have to own or be in cahoots with Oceanic Airlines to stage it is why would the airline not speak up about it not being them who staged it? Perhaps you could say that they decided just to go along with whoever has done the staging to avoid the controversy over the fact it was one of their planes that crashed and that they’ve been unable to recover it themsevles. I really think there’s some link between Widmore and Oceanic though, just doesn’t seem right otherwise.

And I really don’t think, although it’s plausible that he sent Desmond intentionally, that it’s plausible that he sent the 815 flight to the island on purpose. First of all I don’t think something of that magnitude can be controlled to go exactly where he wants. And secondly why would he want anymore people than there already are on the island? As far as we know he wants to exploit it so having more people wouldn’t be a smart choice/move on Widmore’s part.

I didn’t ever hate Michael. Sure I was mad at him for what he did to ,i>Libby and Ana-Lucia but I didn’t HATE him. And now we have seen more of his story I am starting to feel sorry and like him again.

Comment by Ross Miller — March 24, 2008 @ 9:44 am

Finally caught up, yay!

Interesting theory about Widmore owning/being connected to Oceanic, but I’m not so sure. Didn’t they say he bought the plane from some other company? It could have been on the way to the scrap yard, and who would ever find out otherwise from the bottom of the trench?

I really didn’t like Michael back in seasons one and two, I thought he was stubborn and selfish. I understand wanting to protect his son and get rescued, but he often did the stupidest things that compromised the rest of the gang, not the least of which involved Ana and Libby. *However* that last episode was fantastic at finally developing his character, I finally empathize for him.

On a side note, something we may never see again or probably won’t have anything to do with major plot lines, but I LOVED the fact that they made Tom gay. I was always concerned that it was the only minority not represented on such a culturally rich series.

Comment by Ashley Townsend — March 25, 2008 @ 2:06 am

Well remember it was WAS the captain who provided the “evidence” of paperwork saying that Widmore had purchased the plane etc. Remember the note that said “Don’t trust the captain”? I think we can take that as being from Michael, can’t we? So if the captain is lying then I think Widmore owning or being connected to Oceanic is plausible.

And tyeah I liked the fact that they made Tom, and just a character in general, gay. They alluded to that back at the beginning of Season 3 when Kate came out of the shower and Tom said, “You’re not my type”. I didn’t think anything of it at the time but knowing what we do now about him it actually means something.

Comment by Ross Miller — March 25, 2008 @ 2:34 am

@Kurt
“A question for the LOST people: has anyone in this thread read Kazuo Ishiguro’s “NEVER LET ME GO”? is the storytelling style of this novel in any way similar to the storytelling style of LOST? From what I’ve heard from andrew and rot, and considering I’m currently reading the novel, the connection sort of popped into my head.”

Now that I have read the novel I can respond: well both definately jump around a lot, but there really isn’t a moment where things seemed normal like for the characters in the novel. Things are abnormal from day one on Lost. A common formula of the storytelling on Lost is to intercut scenes before the crash with scenes on the island and the two stories leading toward a last minute revelation. As for the thematic elements of Never Let Me Go… I doubt it, although there is a strange kind of endearing quality felt for the island that is also given to Halisham. I will leave it at that.

Comment by rot — April 14, 2008 @ 10:15 am

New episode tonight (4/24/08)!

Comment by Andrew James — April 24, 2008 @ 1:37 pm

So what did my fellow Lost fans think of “The Shape of Things to Come”? I thought it was a fantastic episode, one of the top 3 of season 4 so far. So much happened it’s hard to know where to begin.

I’ll start off with one major point:

Can Ben control the smoke monster?! (I had to bring it up first:P)

Comment by Ross Miller — April 25, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

Finally got around to seeing the episode as I was out of the country when it was on.

It is a bit jarring because one does not expect that much reveal in an episode of Lost all at once… but yeah it was great, aside from the pointless action sequence at the beginning with Rambo Sawyer.

I find it a bit confusing this whole idea that Ben and Whitmore cannot kill each other. I am wondering if there is some context wherein Ben is like Michael was in New York that no matter how hard one tries his job is not finished and he cannot be killed. A context for that would be time travel, your body cannot die if you are travelling into the past as you know that you live at least up to the moment you travel to the past. Are Ben and Whitmore time travellers from the future in the period of time that Lost is depicting?

on one of the podcasts an interesting query was made: if the hatch with the computer terminal countdown was so significant that it could explode why was Ben not more vigilant in watching it? There is a theory that the countdown was a means of controlling a time loop for the island (if you notice the dharma technology has remained mid 1990s and there seems no reason why people like Ben could not update technology if he can get off the island). Perhaps the break in the loop made Ben vulnerable in a way he didnt expect, the rules changed.

as for smokey that seems clear enough, Ben can definately call upon it. Then you need to ask why did he call upon it to take away the original pilot and Echo?

lots of questions.

Comment by rot — April 30, 2008 @ 6:18 am

Yeah I was thinking the same thing: it’s very unusual for Lost to reveal so much in a single episode.

About the Sawyer action sequence; I think it was great, very needed. We have’t really had a full-on action sequence like that for ages so it was great to see one crop up again.

As far as the time travel thing I really don’t buy it. Not physical time travel anyway. I like the whole “conscience time travel” as it, not to my knowledge anyway, hasn’t been done before. Whereas the physical time travel has been done to nausea.

I think the reason that Ben and Widmore can’t kill each other is an ethics thing. Or perhaps a higher power is at work(?). I don’t think it has anything to do with not being able to kill someone as they have to live up to the point where they travelled back. The changing of the rules that Ben mentioned is another ethics thing, basically Widmore didn’t play fair (obviously) by just killing Alex like that, he didn’t adhere to the moral code or “rules”.

With regards to the smoke monster and Ben’s control over it and with the pilot and Eko, I offer a few options: a)He didn’t know how to control it until after the pilot and Eko b)the smoke monster did it of it’s own accord c) someone else within the group of the others (Richard? Jacob?) controlled it to kill Eko and the pilot etc. I really don’t know about that one but those are a few of the plausible reasons behind it.

Comment by Ross Miller — April 30, 2008 @ 8:00 am

Ben. Ethics. I dont think so. There is something that had physically prevented either of them from killing significant players. I do not think his surprise was out of some sense that Widmore cheated on the rules but that it was even possible.

As for time travel, we do see Ben travel in time, or it is implied anyway in that he has to ask what year it is… granted we do not see him on the island at the same time to suggest that he is merely travelling via his mind (but it is the future so that sort of scenario seems implausible, the mind time travel makes sense only if you are going backwards UNLESS Ben and Widmore are from the future and even 2005 is the past to them). I am still convinced that the rules are enforced by natural laws not ethical ones, and that the explosion at the countdown hatch (something Ben was unaware of) may have something to do with the rule changes.

I think what is cool about this episode is that you finally realize Ben does not know everything, and has a vulnerability albeit emotional and intellectual, but not physical. the man has been beaten endlessly in the show but he keeps going.

Comment by rot — April 30, 2008 @ 8:33 am

after this episode I get the feeling that all the survivors on the island are pawns in the Ben/Widmore chessgame. If they merely had a gentleman’s agreement that family were not interfered with then, much like the mafia, you would assume that they would be in cahoots in some way, either as business partners or some other way, but they pose as if mortal enemies. This again is why I do not think it is ethical rules that were broken, but natural ones.

Comment by rot — April 30, 2008 @ 12:42 pm

“I do not think his surprise was out of some sense that Widmore cheated on the rules but that it was even possible.”

I don’t think it’s because it wasn’t possible. Ben said that he changed the rules, if he were referring to the fact that it isn’t possible to do so he would have something like how did he change the rules.

I guess you could take Ben making sure with the hotel woman that it was 2005 that he can travel through time but I think it’s just him making a (in-) joke that obviously the woman wouldn’t have gotten.

I think that the connection between Ben and Widmore is that Widmore is the one who owns (or owned) the Dharma Intiative, somewhat evidenced by him saying that Ben took the island from him. It would make sense if you think about it; he has a lot of money, the amount that could own such an organization. Ben and the natives succesfully carried out their plan to kill all of the remaining Dharma Initiative people that were on the island to claim it (back) as their own. Somehow Widmore couldn’t then find the island because of Ben being able to hide it’s location from him somehow thus him “taking” it from Widmore.

Comment by Ross Miller — April 30, 2008 @ 3:22 pm

entirely disagree with you Ross and will be interested to find out who is right on this. None of that would explain why Ben cannot kill Widmore… we know Ben is capable, we know Ben has the motive, but he physically cannot. There are natural laws at work which are preventing either of them of being killed, and for some reason Ben was under the understanding that his daughter would survive. The only pre-existing explanation for why a physical obstruction could exist that prevents the killing off of a character is 1) Desmond’s mind travelling technique 2) the cryptic notion that one still has work left for the island, as in Michael’s stunted suicide attempts. I think in both scenarios it has something to do with natural laws, the first pertaining to time travel, the second (and this is a wild guess) pertaining to crossing dimensions.

I do not think Ben and Widmore are mortal, or at least mortal in the immediate time frame the show is focusing on, because they already exist in the future. This will be a reveal that will not show up until much later because it remains too much fun to have Ben in dire situations.

Comment by rot — April 30, 2008 @ 6:03 pm

I think I can go with the thing that Ben can’t kill Widmore and vice-versa because they “still have work to do”. I thought that was a very cool idea to do with Michael, kind of rings supernatural buit isn’t quite.

The reason I am so strongly against the physical time travel thing is I just don’t think the creators of the show would take it that far. They have came out and said numerous times that tey’re going to keep the show “within the realms of plausible science”. And time travel, not to my knowledge anyway (:P), is not scientifically possible.

Again, though, I submit that it’s a moral code sort of thing. Like a game of sorts. Perhaps Ben will be able to kill Widmore at one point but just not then and there.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 1, 2008 @ 3:32 am

So what did you think of Episode 10? Again another great episode, season 4 continues to impress. It was a stark contrast to the action/event-centric episode of last week, more of a character-centric one this time.

Let’s start off with….how did Jack get sick if the Island supposedly heals people? Probably this weeks most puzzling general query, everything else that happened was really personal and like I said, character-centric. Thoughts?

Comment by Ross Miller — May 5, 2008 @ 6:28 am

I liked the episode but I got nuthin on what the sickness means. Perhaps we will find out that Jack is not important to the story (I believe originally the character was supposed to die in one of the earlier episodes but after they casted Matthew Fox, and got further along with the writing they decided to keep him). It would be an interesting twist to say he was an anomaly of sorts. who knows.

Comment by rot — May 5, 2008 @ 7:33 am

Well now Ben and Jack have got something in common, I’m sure they’ll be very pleased:P

Yes it’s true that they were supposed to kill the character off, in the first episode actually. You know when he was running away from the smoke monster along with Kate and Charlie? Well at one point he dissapears and the other two don’t know where’s he’s gone. And he was to be found as the one up on the tree, killed by the smoke monster but initial test audience reactions were extremely negative and they decided to change the body to being the pilot and keep the Jack character. Good thing they did as half of the Losties would be dead already if it weren’t for him:P

I loved how they’ve introduced Jack’s downward spiral leading to the growing of the beard and alcohol addiction. Speaking of that point in the flash-forward; what do you think it was that Kate was doing for Sawyer if he’s still on the Island? I think it’s something to do with his daughter.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 5, 2008 @ 10:08 am

I don’t know about everyone else but I am really digging where they are taking the show this season. Very glad they finally brought back the great monumental score that they had in the pilot but I cannot remember them using since. The music needs to be monuemental at times.

Ben is the ultimate bad-ass, and quite clearly not the real villian. From what I have heard the next episode is the big payoff episode and the one after that is tying together some loose ends, a bit anti-climatic. Can’t wait.

Comment by rot — May 16, 2008 @ 6:54 am

I am taking it, rot, that you are referring to part 1 of the finale by your last comment(?)

Oh my God what a brilliant episode. Although only part one of three it still was just utterly compelling.

It’s amazing how they make you care about what happens to the characters on the Island even though you know that they get off. At the start of this episode we even see them get off and reunite with their families. And yet we are still apprehensive about Jack and Kate heading towards the helicopter. I don’t know how they manage to do it but they do and I love it.

Yes I see what you mean by that music that they played, although I am sure they have used that in every season finale so far. Definitely with season 3.

So how do you think Jin ends up not getting off the Island? Do you think he really is dead or is everyone (the Oceanic 6 I mean) just pretending at all times to hide the secret? I think he is more than likely deadly, shown not only by how upset Sun was at his “grave” but I think the only way Jin wouldn’t leave with Sun is if he was killed. It’s a shame.

This episode pretty much confirmed my newest theory that Claire wasn’t killed but that she just never came back after walking off into the jungle with Christian. Btw any thoughts on what the whole cabin thing was about (for some reason we didn’t discusss last week’s episode)? I really hope they don’t go the whole supernatural way, I really don’t.

What do you think is in The Orchid? How is it possible to “move” the Island? Does it mean literally move it or make it so that no one can find it on the radar? I think it’s probably the latter, maybe that’s why Ben said that Mr Widmore won’t be able to find it, because the coordinates have been somehow changed.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 16, 2008 @ 2:18 pm

I’m a little disappointed with the FB subject for the finale. It was okay for one episode but I don’t see where it goes for 2 more hours.

The title of the episode led me to think it was going to be about Ben. Possibly his rise to power with the others. And we’d learn what Widmore meant when he told Ben “everything you have you stole from me”.
In retrospect it should’ve been obvious that the finale FB would be about the return of the Oceanic 6.
What I did like about this episode was how many different plot lines they had running. The characters were all over the place. And I love how they’ve got us following the oceanic 6 all over the island wondering how they’re going to come together. They couldn’t possibly be more split up at this point.

Sawyer looking out for Hugo… great. But I can’t but wonder if it devalues his character.

Ben is both hero and villian. A sociopath who wins at any cost, but he just may be on the right side.

Comment by Rusty James — May 16, 2008 @ 5:20 pm

With regards to the whole conversation with Ben and Widmore in London - I raelly don’t think you’ll find out what that was until either next season or the following. I think the only plausible way to explain why Widmore would say that Ben stole everything from him is that Widmore owns (or used to own) the Dharma Initiative.

I know exactly what you mean - we see the Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Aaron on the plane on their way home and you’re thinking how the hell do they all end up together when Sawyer is with Jack, Hurley with Locke and Ben, Sun on the freighter which is rigged to explode (along with Sayid and Aaron). It’s just crazy, I can’t wait to see how they are rescued.

I think with all the things that has happened to Sawyer on the Island it has dramatically changed him. He has become more of the leader character since Jack has been with a different group. He has come to care a lot more about the characters and wants to protect them any way he can - I think it goes a long way to better his character.

And yeah I love the split dynamic of Ben. He is both good and bad (like most of the characters, come to think of it) but not the evil bastard we once took him for.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 17, 2008 @ 5:39 am

@ “I think the only plausible way to explain why Widmore would say that Ben stole everything from him is that Widmore owns (or used to own) the Dharma Initiative.”

Or he was leader of the Hostiles.

Comment by Rusty James — May 17, 2008 @ 7:03 pm

“Or he was leader of the Hostiles.”

I hadn’t actually thought of that one but I am going to stick with him owning the DI. He’s the kind of guy with tons of money to be able to own a thing like that, but if he was the leader of the Hostiles I do’t think he’d be living life off the Island.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 18, 2008 @ 5:33 am

Ross, what if he was outstered and exiled by Ben?

Comment by Rusty James — May 18, 2008 @ 4:39 pm

We already have the case of a character who seemingly does not age (eyeliner guy), one of the hostiles, and while there can probably be a lot of reasons for that I do think it may have something to do with the myth of the fountain of youth, and this notion of the island’s healing powers, and someone like Widmore appears to be an old frail man who could very much use the powers of the island for his personal health. I find it less interesting which group Widmore belongs to and more interesting to ask what are his personal motivations. Even if he is the head of the Dharma Initiative, I guess we still do not fully understand under what context it came to be.

Comment by rot — May 18, 2008 @ 4:58 pm

What I find interesting is the feud between Widmore and Ben. “I know what you really are” has been a phrase directed towards been more than once this season.
In context I think Widmore is refering to Ben’s days as a janitor.

Another Widmore prediction. I think he’s going to turn out to be responsible for sending 815 to the island. 1) apparently he’s capitolized off it. 2) he’s linked to both Desmond and Henry Gale’s arrival to the island.

I really worry that 34 hours might not be enough to cover all this.

Comment by Rusty James — May 18, 2008 @ 7:38 pm

I was thinking the exact same thing - that Widmore somehow caused all of these people to crash on the Island. I mean we don’t exactly know what caused it (Desmond THINKS he did but we don’t know for sure). My question is how the hell could someone manage to control a plane crash of that size? How did he know it would exactly land there?

Do you not think that Widmore, if he was indeed the leader of the Hostiles, would just kill Ben, a newcomer? When Widmore said that Ben stole everything he has from him I think it makes more sense that he was/still is the owner of the DI. Think about it - when Ben and the Hostiles purged the members of the DI that could be what Widmore is referring to when he said Ben took it from him. He forcefully took it. It could be either way and neither would be overly implausible.

Don’t worry, Rusty, the creators have gotten is this far, so far so good, so I think you’re in pretty safe hands for them to tie up the series perfectly.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 19, 2008 @ 1:47 am

@ “Do you not think that Widmore, if he was indeed the leader of the Hostiles, would just kill Ben”

Actually Ross, that exact issue has been addressed by the show. Locke is Ben’s successor and Ben did try to kill him.

Obviously Ben was just a little bit more clever. I love the idea that Widmore is calling Ben out for being a simple janitor masquerading as a globtrotting assassin and spy.

You know what’s an interesting tidbit? Horace has been dead 12 years but Alex is 16. Apparently Danielle and Alex arrived during the reign of Dharma. Hmm.

In closing Ross, I too have a great amount of confidence in the show runners (Darlton).

Comment by Rusty James — May 19, 2008 @ 2:20 am

oh yeah, prediction time. Who’s in the coffin?

Comment by Rusty James — May 19, 2008 @ 2:24 am

Well I first thought Locke, then Ben but now I think it’s Michael. “Friend or family — Neither” Plus on Lost fan sites people have zoomed in on the newspaper cut-out that Jack had and it said “deceased left teenage son”, or something along those lines.

Comment by Ross Miller — May 19, 2008 @ 2:54 am

Haven’t been reading the comments, but I’ve got all the shows on my hard drive and ready to watch. I’ll be starting it up this weekend and all caught up for the season finale!

Comment by Andrew James — May 19, 2008 @ 5:08 pm

@Andrew,

cool. But if I were you I avoid this section like the plague ’til you’re all caught up.

Comment by Rusty James — May 19, 2008 @ 8:24 pm

non-spoiler: six words for you Andrew… The Shape of Things to Come

Comment by rot — May 20, 2008 @ 7:35 am

so Andrew are you caught up for the season finale tonight?

Comment by rot — May 29, 2008 @ 10:33 am

I am right aren’t I… the Lost finale is tonight?

Comment by rot — May 29, 2008 @ 12:54 pm

Anyone call it in the coffin?

Comment by Russell James — May 30, 2008 @ 1:45 am

100% surprise for me, I think I called everybody but him.

I am kinda glad that they have killed off a number of characters and resolved some (perhaps Desmond storyline is done), here’s hoping they go lean and mean next season.

best line of the two hours:

Locke: Everyone on the boat is going to die.
Ben: …so?

Comment by rot — May 30, 2008 @ 6:47 am

I still find Lost the fastest one hour television program I have watched, it is constantly enjoyable but I do feel a creakiness to the story at this point… I think that is a difficult place to stop, I think there is a lot of important storytelling to come and to get to that point we need to tread through this, but this is a bit of a valley now.

Character-wise though is this not just the Ben show now? and when you take Ben off the island you are losing an important piece of what makes the show captivating.

Comment by rot — May 30, 2008 @ 7:48 am

@ “and when you take Ben off the island you are losing an important piece of what makes the show captivating.”

how so?

One of my favorite parts of the episode was Eko’s cameo. Brilliant!

Jin alive? I think so. I’m wondering if Claire is going to be a regular cast member from here in. Claire, Desmond, and Jin seemed to have been written into the periphery.

My hopes for next season: more from the new characters that were lost in the shuffle Miles, Danny, Charlott and the woefully underused Lance Redick.
Rewatching the episode I realized it’s intentionally ambiguous as to whether Danny is on the right side of the fence when the island jumps. Maybe he’ll be showing up in the real world to haunt Jack & friends with his patented brand of weirdo. I think he and Desmond might have a story ark together.

The title of next season is offically Lost Series 5: Gettin’ The Band Back Together.

Comment by Russell James — May 30, 2008 @ 10:15 am

On the island Ben was in his element, he was the man with the plan and everything around him felt like an extension of some thought up mouse trap. He did not expect to be thrust from the island for good, and its like a magician without his bag of tricks.

I am worried they are going to re-animate Locke and that, to me, is jumping the shark. The creators had said from the beginning when people are dead they are dead, there would be no ‘zombies’. Everything feels a bit too liberal with scientific plausibility, something they also assured they would not stray too far from. I am hoping that it is because our present vanatage point is skewed, we see things wrong and that things will tie up better later on.

In one interview the creators had responded to a fan theory that pertained to an elaborate parallel universe explanation, and they graded the theory an “A” and said in parts it was right on… and that next season you will think yourself very clever, only to have the season next crush your confidence entirely.

still lots of mysteries to come.

Comment by rot — May 30, 2008 @ 12:46 pm

@”On the island Ben was in his element”

I hear what your saying but shows have to mix it up, take their fish out of water. Otherwise things become stale and formulamatic.

I see this as a great extention of the storyline. Ben as the janitor turned king, exiled by his own nation.

Also, I keep hearing about Locke being “re-animated”. I’m not worried about it. For starters Locke is not dead. He’s alive and well in the main timeline. This isn’t a character death, this is a peak at things to comeThe writers don’t need to cheat in order to keep telling his story.
Really the flashback device the writers from ever having to resort to that sort of foolishness.

As for scientific plausibility. Well obviously that ship’s sailed. I think if you’re still holding out for that you’re just setting yourself up for disappointment

Comment by Russell James — May 30, 2008 @ 5:02 pm

“I sick of lying” - Jack Shepard

Maybe I’m slow to the draw on this but I think that the lie Jack is talking about isn’t the O6 cover story but rather the lie he’s been telling himself since their rescue.
The cover story isn’t just about protecting the others it’s also allowing Jack to deny the supernatural experiences of the island which challenge his world view. And by extension Jack is denying his destiny.
Jack’s first leap of faith when he pushed the button in S.2 (which he later recanted) was a foreshadowing of the larger leap faith that he’ll need to take in the future. Returning to the Island is to Jack what pushing the button is to Locke.

“You’ve got work to do”, this is a phrase we’ve heard repeated three times since the S.3 finale. Every character to hear this has heard it after being spared from certain death. Tom said it to Michael after his failed suicide attempt; Walt said it to Locke after he was shot by Ben; and Christian said it about Jack (not to him directly) after he survived what should’ve been a fatal plane crash (if that doesn’t sounds familiar please see the canonical Lost: Missing Pieces episode #13). These characters have been spared from death by “The Island” (whatever that means) so that they can fulfill their destiny.

But the characters have to agree to follow their destiny, there’s still an element of free will involved. Eko said “no” to the island and he died for it (Eko was the biblical Jacob in reverse. He refused to inherit his brother’s birth right).
Since S1 we’ve seen the Christian Shepard apparition try to communicate unsuccessfully to Jack. Clearly there’s an important message to be delivered but Jack has not said “yes” to his destiny. He’s still the man of science.
We’re seeing Jack move towards his destiny (facilitated in part by the death of Locke I’m guessing.). His willingness to co-operate with Ben is definitely a massive development for his character. When he’s finally ready (returning Locke’s body maybe a test for him, similar to Locke and Ben having to kill their fathers. Notice that fathers consistently represent destiny, even Eko’s brother was a priest so it’s a play on words.) When he passes the test he and Christian will finally have the conversation they were meant to have since S.1.

Desmond will probably be instrumental to Jack’s development. In season 2 he restored faith to Locke (returning the favor) and appearance convinced Jack to push the button. His phone call to penny 8 years later could also be seen as a restoration of faith. He is a harbinger of faith, almost the polar opposite of his name sake David Hume.

One of the best things about the writing in lost is how convincingly Ben is able to worm his way into peoples lives. First Locke, then Sawyer, now Jack. He knows exactly when to approach people and what to offer them. But he’s successful because he’s a herald of the island. He’s destiny’s messenger. He’s evil because destiny is a sinister force. Most of the character’s rightfully scared of accepting their destiny.

Comment by Russell James — May 30, 2008 @ 9:55 pm

I didn’t call who was in the coffin, total surprise to me too. I mean I DID put forward Locke’s name at one point but I was certain it was Michael. I guess “Jeremy Bentham” is just a code-name Locke used (obviously to hide that he was one of the Oceanic 6) and the thing that people noticed on the newspaper obituary that said “survived by a teenaged son” was just part of his cover. But question - they said at one point during the finale that he visited various people; was that to get them to come back to the Island? I can’t really remmeber who it was he visited exactly but was just curious.

I was quite surprised that they actually killed Jin off. I mean that thing with his grave and everything - the fact that it said the date of the crash was the date of his death I thought meant that he was still alive on the Island and that he hadn’t died. I really didn’t think they’d actually kill him off.

Like when we first got introduced to the whole flashforwards thing I fail to see how the hell they can link up to Locke being the leader of the natives on the Island and dead off the Island? I’m sure the creators will get us there brilliantly but right now it’s a stretch to see how.

@”One of the best things about the writing in lost is how convincingly Ben is able to worm his way into peoples lives.”

I know, it’s brilliant. Remember when that Paulo guy was hiding in the toilet of that monitoring station and he overheard Ben and Juliet talking, Ben said that he’ll get him (Jack) to agree to do the surgery by learning what he’s invested in and exploiting it. But I also love that he’s not a complete bad guy, in fact he actually seems more good than bad now.

So what do we make of things in the bigger picture? The thing with the Island just dissapearing? I couldn’t believe they were actually as bold as that, showing it literally dissapearing (or sinking below water suddenly?) before our eyes. And I take it that once someone does that thing with the frozen wheel and “moves” the Island that they are transported through time and never allowed to return hence Ben waking up in the Sahara Desert with the same clothes (and arm injury)after turning the wheel. On that note - I am not sure I like the physical time travel thing. I mean I really liked the mind time travel with Desmond etc but we’ve seen the physical time travel thing so much in other movies/tv shows. Hopefully the team behind Lost will make it original enough in the way they go about it.

What do you think the whole thing is with Charlotte? Miles let slip that she has been looking specifically for the Island for a long time. And then she said to Daniel something about trying to find the palce she was born. Is this just a saying or phrase on her part or does it mean that she was born on the Island?

Now onto Richard Alpert - so I take it he time travelled to all those points where we seen him in the past ie. John’s birth, growing up etc? I guess when he came to the Island they sent Richard back to find out if maybe he could have came sooner than when he did by keeping an eye on him through his growing up. That’s how they knew to send Lance Reddick’s character as an “orderly” to see John when he was still in a wheelchair.

One thing that’s bothering me is the whole Christian thing - is he a ghost? Or is it “Jacob” (and who or what the HELL is he already?!) making people see things?

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